IIC 157: Overview of Internal Family Systems -- Catholic Style

Dr. Peter: [00:00:00] Being loved and loving. That is what this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast is all about. And that is what this episode is specifically about. Welcome to episode 157, a new and better way to embrace love and to love back. What are we doing? We’re working on embracing your identity as a beloved little son or daughter of God. To receive that love of God and to love back with your whole heart. That is what we are all about. Matthew 22: “And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him, ‘Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?’ And he said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the prophets.'” If we understand our human nature better, if we understand human formation better, if we understand how we can love ourselves better in a relational way, it makes it so much easier for us to follow the two great commandments, to love God and to love our neighbor. And not just to love God with our will, the faculty of the will, but to love God with all your heart, your whole heart, whole heartedly loving God, loving him with all your soul, all your mind. That’s more than just the will. As important as the faculty of the will is, your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole mind, it’s more than just your will.

Dr. Peter: [00:01:46] In order to facilitate this in this podcast, at Souls and Hearts as well in general, we draw insights from all the secular sciences in accordance with paragraph 62 of the Vatican II document on the Pastoral Constitution of the Church in the Modern World that reads, “In pastoral care sufficient use must be made not only of theological principles, but also of the findings of the secular sciences, especially of psychology and sociology, so that the faithful may be brought to a more adequate and mature life of faith.” Throughout all of 2025, we will be bringing in the insights from internal family systems, a model, an approach developed by Dr. Richard Schwartz, and harmonize them with the truths of the Catholic faith, to help you live out the three great loves and the two great commandments: to love God, your neighbor, and yourself. And I believe IFS has so much to offer us with that. Bringing in so many of our Souls and Hearts staff this year to share with you how the insights from IFS and other parts and systems approaches can help you overcome obstacles and deficits in your human formation. And again, why? So that you can love better. So I’m excited about this, let’s get on with it. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast. I am so glad to be with you. I’m a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, a writer, the co-founder and president of Souls and Hearts. But most of all, most of all, I’m a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you to taste and see the height and depth and breadth and warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God your Father, and also Mary your Mother, your spiritual parents, God the Father, Mary your mother, your primary parents.

Dr. Peter: [00:03:42] I’m here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little child of God and Mary. Now I am super excited because in this episode my co-host is Marion Moreland. Marion is a Level 3 certified internal family systems therapist and guide with a masters of Science in Clinical Counseling, and she is a master traumatologist. Rooted deeply in her Catholic faith, Marion was trained at Divine Mercy University through the Catholic Christian Meta-Model of the Person, where she now serves as adjunct faculty. This unique framework enables her to see the inherent dignity and God-given uniqueness of every person, guiding them toward a flourishing life, and this is particularly important to me in Souls and Hearts. As the lead navigator for the Resilient Catholics Community in Souls and Hearts, Marion works to support human formation through the integration of internal family systems and a Catholic anthropology. In addition to helping individuals deepen their self-understanding and healing, she also offers consultations for helping professionals who wish to integrate faith and IFS into their practice. Marion has been married for 40 years, she is blessed with three daughters and ten grandchildren. Marian finds joy in dancing, home projects, and traveling for pleasure. Join her on this podcast with me to explore the intersection of faith, psychology, and personal growth, and to discover how to live a flourishing, God-centered life. So, Marion, it is so good, it is so good to have you with us today. Welcome to the show.

Marion Moreland: [00:05:14] Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Peter, it’s really good to be here.

Dr. Peter: [00:05:17] And I am really excited to introduce our guest expert, the one who will be kind of leading our conversation today. And that is David Edwards. He is an IFS therapist. He’s the founder of Saint Joseph Counseling, where he sees clients and runs consultation groups for therapists about practicing IFS from a Catholic perspective. David was also trained at Divine Mercy University in clinical mental health counseling through the Catholic Christian Meta-Model of the Person. More recently, he is the president of a new professional association in Arizona called Catholic Therapists Arizona. David and I have gotten to know each other in both the Formation for Formators Community and the Resilient Catholics Community. He is also the lead facilitator for the Love One Another group. That’s an advanced human formation group in the Formation for Formators group, for formators, therapists, coaches, spiritual directors, and others who accompany work in loving our neighbors in their parts in a very deliberate way. David has been married for ten years. He has three daughters and a one-year-old son, and aside from therapy and wrestling with his children, he enjoys racing in triathlons, flying remote controlled helicopters, and taking on extra projects around the house. All right, so such a great team. So excited to have you with us, David. Oh, just awesome to be able to spend some time together. I’m so looking forward to this episode.

David Edwards: [00:06:37] Thank you, Peter. Really great to be here.

Dr. Peter: [00:06:40] Well, you know what? I just want to turn this over to you, David. Like, what do you think we need to know? This episode is sort of an introduction to internal family systems. I know you’ve been working in this modality for years now. When somebody just first coming into contact with IFS, what is it that they most need to know?

David Edwards: [00:07:04] The thing that immediately comes to mind, that maybe when I’m sitting with somebody and they’re kind of opening up, you know, their life and their struggles and why they’re coming to see me, is that I want them to know that everything that’s going on inside of them, that it makes sense. That there’s kind of a rhyme and reason to it all. You know, that it’s not just random, whatever thoughts, feelings, whatever inner conflicts they have, whatever negative emotions they keep on, or behaviors they keep on wrestling with. That it’s not just this random assortment of stuff that the best you could hope for is to kind of figure out how to cope with it, but that you could make sense of all of this, and not just in kind of this heady, analytical way, to figure it out, but to really — going to what you started with today or what the podcast is about — that the person can really know themselves and love themselves. And that’s a thing I love about this approach, is that it gives us a way to kind of step away from really rejecting or exiling or despising ourselves in some way, or hating whatever’s going on inside in a way, to actually love ourselves, even the parts of us that do bad things or things that we don’t like or you know. That we can actually love them and that that love can bring the changes, the shifting, you know, inside that we really need. And so that’s, you know, IFS is, what I found most helpful as a way to make sense of and bring that love to ourselves that we are needing, and then to love others more freely, to love God more freely, more fully.

Dr. Peter: [00:09:01] Yeah. Yeah, I love it. So where does one start? If one is like, okay, this sounds interesting. Where do they start with this? Relating to oneself, loving oneself, you know, what’s the sort of launching point or the sort of departure point in this new way of thinking about oneself or conceptualizing what’s going on inside?

David Edwards: [00:09:29] Yeah, yeah. So you’re meaning, where do we start with ourselves? Where do we start in our inner world? Well, probably the first thing if we’re going to look at it through this model, which I suppose is what we’re doing, is that you have parts. That all of these, the thoughts, the feelings, the inner conflict, the struggles, the behaviors you don’t like, all that stuff, right? It’s all, every piece of it, is connected in some way with a part of you, and that each part has its own reasons for thinking and feeling and behaving in the ways that it does. And each part has its own kind of distinct memories, its own experiences that it’s kind of held on to, or maybe felt stuck in its own patterns. So that’s the first thing is, like, you have parts. And I suppose that will be the thing we’re going to talk a little more about, is what do we mean? What do I mean when I say that we have parts?

Dr. Peter: [00:10:36] Yeah, that’s what I think might be coming to mind is, okay, so what is a part? Is it like a mood? Is it like a, you know, some sort of temporary state of being, a mode of operating, like what? You know, kind of give us a little bit about what these parts are.

David Edwards: [00:10:54] Yeah. So, definition of parts. I’m going to start with your definition that you’ve used before and that I have here in front of me. So you used to do this thing, it was like, “definition time with Dr. Peter!” And then there was like a tune that played. So we’ll just pretend like it was there. So parts feel like — this is Dr. Peter’s definition. “Parts feel like separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with its own unique, prominent needs roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style and worldview. Each part also has an image of God.” And I would add, maybe each part has — an image being this kind of assumption or experience of who God is — each part also has ideas about who God is, as well as about who I am, my self image and ideas about who I myself am as a person, and even about the rest of the world and about others. Each part might have its own perspective about what the world is like and what other people in my life are like, and what other people in general are like.

Dr. Peter: [00:12:13] Marion, I’m curious. You know, you obviously have been doing this for quite a while too. What, you know, what strikes you about parts? And as we kind of like catch up with like, all right, what is, if we kind of try to wrap our minds around, you know, what might be for some of our listeners, some of our viewers, really a new thought here.

Marion Moreland: [00:12:33] Yeah. What always stands out to me, and it feels like it comes up usually pretty quickly with clients is, wait a sec, are you talking, like, multiple personality parts? And I think it’s so important to say, no, not that. There’s a very different sort of situation going on with someone who has, you know, been diagnosed with something like dissociative identity disorder. We’re not talking about that. We’re just talking about this inner system that works in us, that kind of drives us. You know, part of me says I should go to work today. A part of me says we should sleep in all day. You know, we all have that, right.

David Edwards: [00:13:16] I like that, Marion. It’s so kind of, we use this colloquially. Most people can resonate at that level with the idea of parts. Like, part of me wants to be a gentle, patient, loving, kind father. And then this other part of me just jumps in and it’s like, you know, when my kids are being this or that way and just, like, loses it a little bit, you know?

Marion Moreland: [00:13:38] Yeah, for sure. It is. And they talk about therapists that do IFS as being parts detectors. But I really think if we listen, just even in the vernacular, TV, books, you know, literature, we hear this language because it’s natural. It’s part of how we are. We’re not introducing some foreign concept. Yes, at times it feels a little weird when we say we’re going to talk to our parts. But, if we can really back up and see, this is really how we function.

Dr. Peter: [00:14:14] I’m just curious for the both of you, when did you first come into contact with a part? Was there like a part that helped you to kind of come to the conclusion that, hey, this is like a real thing. You know, if you don’t mind sharing, like, if it feels right and good to kind of share something about like, was there a part of you that taught you that parts exist? Something like that.

Marion Moreland: [00:14:38] Well, yes, very much so. I didn’t come into IFS through the clinical world. I came in through doing some personal work on parts around eating specifically. And so my first part I met was my food manager, which now I kind of refer to as my health guru. We’ve had a little negotiation, but yeah, this part was really good at its job. You know, it could put me on diets, it could tell me when to exercise. It made me do an undergrad degree in sports and health science for some time. You know, I was an accountant beforehand, that made sense, right. But this part has the capacity to really drive me hard. And so that was the first part I met. And then it followed quickly that, yeah, there’s a counterpart to this. There’s a part that says, nope, we aren’t doing that. And so that was kind of my sequencing was I kind of learned these two parts right up front. What about you, David?

David Edwards: [00:15:43] Yeah, I could definitely share my own. I was introduced to IFS more on the clinical side, after I had already been practicing a little bit as a therapist, and some of my colleagues were bringing it to me, some of the folks here in the Formation for Formators community. And then, you know, I was kind of skeptical and was like, this is just another angle on the same old stuff, you know, just another way to conceptualize things. I didn’t really get the depth of what it really was. But the first part that I met, once I was kind of willing to let myself experience it a little bit, have a colleague kind of take me through some things, was — and it’s the one I already mentioned that I didn’t exactly say was my own part — but like the father who gets impatient part and just wants my kids to just be the way I want them to be. And this part has had maybe a few names, but the one that’s really stuck, which initially was really how he showed up as is my coach. And to put some kind of imagery to it was, this guy is like coaching a football team that is just not doing well, and he’s mad and he’s pacing up and down the sidelines and he’s spitting and cussing and you know, he’s got his clipboard, he’s throwing it on the ground, breaking it over his knee and whatnot.

David Edwards: [00:17:02] And he could just like really be real frustrated and impatient and whatnot. And I still often call him my coach these days. But, you know, there are different kinds of coaches out there. There are coaches like that. And then there are coaches who are deeply committed to their teams and that they’re, you know, patient and gentle. And maybe they can also kind of drill down a little bit and say, like, let’s get it together, guys. We got this. But also like, just much more of an encourager. So another word maybe is like an inner critic. This part, you know, was a critic and sometimes is. But when I’m really, he’s operating well, really in a mode that really works well for him and for the rest of, you know, my own parts and, you know, my children, then he’s more of an encourager. He inspires and impels people forward, my own parts and others in my life. So this very different way of coaching.

Dr. Peter: [00:18:04] Yeah, that’s just such great imagery, right? To kind of say, yeah, this is what happens. This is the way that I am, in a sense, when these parts are very prominent. And Marion, you sort of brought up the conflict between, you know, two of your parts, right? That’s often a way that we encounter parts. Like, why is there this fighting within me, you know, why is there this conflict within me? So are these parts like real things, do you think? Like because this comes up sometimes too. Is this just a way that we are just trying to describe internal experience? Do these parts like really exist? Are we saying there’s these little kind of characters within us, like in Inside Out? Or is this like a metaphor, you know, for you guys. You know, it’s just a way that we kind of describe these constellations of certain experiences, and it’s a kind of shorthand to kind of label a conglomeration of feelings and impulses and desires that all kind of go together.

David Edwards: [00:19:10] I like that question. My initial thought about it is, I don’t worry too much about that question and whether or not they’re real. And maybe it’s important, it is relevant, you know, to some degree. And some people are debating about, you know, who are smarter than me, about that question. Maybe I’d say like, yeah, there’s not actual little people inside of me, and I would definitely emphasize that I’m one person. I am only one person, and each of us is one person. And that’s definitely true. But I’ll borrow a little bit from you, Dr. Peter, on that. And something I remember you said to me once, when I asked about this was — I’m going to paraphrase, so maybe you didn’t say it exactly like this, but it’s what I heard — maybe parts are real in that sense, and maybe they’re not. Maybe they’re kind of analogies or like kind of neural networks, ways we describe certain neural networks that operate in certain ways, but that parts don’t generally appreciate being referred to as neural networks or analogies. And so it just works better if we act like our parts are real and we operate in that way and relate with them as though they are real people we can relate with, and love them in that way too. So that’s my thought about that.

Marion Moreland: [00:20:28] Yeah, I mean, I think their feelings are real. The emotions they go through are real. Do they look like little Inside Out critters? No. Mine tend to look like, you know, objects or jetpacks or things. You know, that’s just kind of how I can conceptualize them in my brain, to be able to externalize it. But it gives language to all that stuff that gets all mucked up inside and gives a way to visualize it. So, you know, I don’t have anyone at my control booth running, you know, pushing buttons or whatever. But the feelings are there behind that, whether there’s a button physically being pushed or not.

Dr. Peter: [00:21:16] Yeah, I pretty much in alignment with where you guys are. Like, there’s a phenomenological pull or reality there. You know, something seems to be really going on. What I found, and we don’t want to use pragmatism as the primary driver of our metaphysics, okay? So we do have some folks that are thinking about this deeply, and we will be talking about some of this more later on this year in the podcast. But yeah, that it works to be able to interact like this inside, you know, it really helps. And we are supposed to somehow relate with ourselves because, you know, our Lord said, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. That implies there has to be some kind of way of relating internally. For you to love yourself means that you’re both the subject and the object of that love, and you’re the one loving and the you’re the one receiving the love. And so, you know, there’s a challenge there for, I think, all of us to figure out how we’re going to conceptualize that, you know, what is that really going to look like? And this is the one that I found, far and away of all the different models I’ve looked at, has this advantage of being able to, as you were saying earlier, David, understand, make sense of what our internal experience is.

David Edwards: [00:22:34] That’s something I’ve been thinking and talking to people about a lot recently, that is, the thing, probably if I could capture what I most love about IFS, is that it’s relational. That just like deep, right at its core, it’s about relationship with myself. Well, relationship not only with myself, but with others and with God. It’s relational. And that that is also, at our deepest core, who we as humans are, is relational. And it’s why God created us is to be in relationship with him. So at the deepest, deepest level, it seems like it’s got this alignment with who we are as humans.

Dr. Peter: [00:23:21] So how important is it to you, Marion, and to you, David, this breakdown of the roles of parts. Dick Schwartz, Richard Schwartz has talked about exiled parts. He’s talked about manager parts. He’s talked about firefighter parts. What are we talking about with these? And how important is it to kind of make these determinations? Just curious where you are with that.

Marion Moreland: [00:23:46] It depends whether you’re asking my manager who wants to categorize everything and sort it all out, or asking the firefighter who is just like, just shut up. You know, for parts of me it feels really important. But, you know, we use this exile, manager, firefighter kind of dynamic. I tend to go more into the generalization of saying protectors, because I think that sometimes managers can be a bully in our system, or they can be a mentor, which is kind of what David was describing with his coach earlier. Or a firefighter can be a troublemaker or it can be an advocate. And so there’s kind of this, like, where’s the part at? And there is a part of me that wants to spend a lot of time, and my clients love to do it. They bring in their list and they’re like, is that a manager or a firefighter? And I’m just like, ask the part, you know, ask, just ask. And is it helpful sometimes to think, okay, is this proactive or reactive? Yeah. Or is this one of those big feelings that just doesn’t fit any place? There’s the exile. So that’s how I kind of look at it. What about you, David?

David Edwards: [00:25:05] Yeah. Will it be helpful to here, just because of our focus for today, to give a quick explanation of the roles of parts and what we mean by that? Just for anyone who might not know. So basically in IFS, we have kind of two broad categories of parts, and some parts we call exiles. And these are the parts that when we have, say, traumatic experiences or difficult emotional experiences, especially when we’re young, that we take on some intense, maybe negative emotions or negative beliefs about ourselves, such as feelings or beliefs about, you know, our own worth like that. I’m kind of worthless or not worth much, or that I’m all alone in the world, or that the world is not safe or I’m never going to be safe. But it would be too overwhelming to have that just be really front and center all the time. And so to protect us from that, one part can take on some of those intense negative emotions or overwhelming emotions or beliefs and then other parts, these are the ones — so the one that takes it on would be an exile, the ones that protect, that step up we call protectors. And they’re working to keep those exiled parts kind of out of our conscious awareness so that we’re not too flooded with all of that intensity. And among protectors, we’ve got kind of two categories. Some of them are more proactive, and these we call managers. And they’re really working to kind of proactively to keep exiles locked away and out of awareness. And that could look like, you know, high-achieving perfectionism or obsessing over little details to try to never make a mistake. I don’t know if you guys have other examples.

Marion Moreland: [00:26:51] I always think of, if I do everything right, nothing bad will happen. That’s my manager’s role. Get it all right, so nothing bad happens.

Dr. Peter: [00:27:00] Yeah, getting out ahead of it, right. That’s that proactive drive to preserve things in at least a sort of reasonable state, you know, so that things are not spinning out of control. That’s the proactive aspect of it that I think you were mentioning, David.

David Edwards: [00:27:17] Yeah, and then there’s the reactive aspect to it, where sometimes other parts can kind of take on these roles of being more reactive. And we call those parts firefighters, or we put them in the category of firefighters, and they’re the ones who will show up when the managers are not able to keep our exiles contained. And maybe something bad happens, we get some bad feedback or some mistake or something. And our exiles come flooding, an exile comes flooding forward with intense feelings of, or threatening to flood with the intense feelings of shame or worthlessness or being overwhelmed. And then the firefighters step in and their goal is to put out the flames by whatever means possible. That’s why we call them firefighters. They’re not really concerned with collateral damage. They will, you know, kick the walls down so that they can put the fires out. They’ll drench everything. And so that could look like addictive behaviors, binging on various substances or behaviors, to just kind of wash out the pain and get away from it. And it can have a lot of other negative impacts, especially in the medium- to long-term. And they’re focused on that short-term time horizon. Anything you guys wanted to add to that?

Marion Moreland: [00:28:30] I was just thinking, I’ve always thought of firefighters as, douse the flames. That was kind of, what I heard, what I took in and internalized, because that’s what I was seeing in my system so often. But when I was doing one of my trainings with Cece, she was telling us that, that was Cece Sykes, that Dick’s original reason for wanting to call them a firefighter was not to douse the flames, but to come in as the hero and save the day, to fix the problem that’s going on. Now, doesn’t always feel like that when it’s an addictive part showing up, right? But for that moment, that part thinks it’s solving the problem, which might be a good segue into some of the aspects of parts about them having good intentions and things like that.

David Edwards: [00:29:23] And it’s also probably worth, just right before that segue, to note that we are talking about roles of parts. And that’s a point, I think you were kind of bringing this up a little while ago, Peter. This is a point I’ve got hung up on sometimes is that we can kind of box parts in a little bit too. Like, this is who the part is as a firefighter or a manager or an exile. But these are the roles parts get into. And it’s not exactly who the part is. Our parts are a lot more complex than that. There’s a lot more to them, and especially as we get to know them more and ultimately further down the road, help them to be more freed up from these roles that they’ve been stuck in, there could be quite a bit of more complexity in a good way, especially that comes to the surface with them.

Dr. Peter: [00:30:10] Yeah, absolutely.

Marion Moreland: [00:30:12] Yeah. That’s so important you brought that up. I’m glad. Yeah, because that doesn’t always get addressed.

David Edwards: [00:30:18] So actually, on that note, I don’t always, kind of like you were saying, Marion. You were hitting at, Peter. Like, I don’t get too hung up on, is it a manager or is it a firefighter? What’s the deal here? It’s just like, all parts are complex. Many parts can be kind of proactive and reactive a little bit. They can also carry intense emotions and we just want to know the parts. Just like if you’re getting to know a person, a real person in the external world, that they are multi-dimensional and there’s a lot to that person. And they’re not just like this specific thing. There’s a lot to them.

David Edwards: [00:30:54] Just like a couple things that are really good to be aware of about parts is that they are inherently good and they always have good intentions. They’re always trying to help, even the parts that bring the, say behaviors, or the urges, or impulses that seem bad or that maybe are sinful or harmful to ourselves or harmful to others. No matter how bad it might seem, that part always has a good intention. It’s trying to help in some way, trying to help you. That’s not easy to see sometimes. Like a lot of times people are thinking like, what good could this part possibly be trying to do? And we can probably throw out some examples of the types of things parts might bring, where people have a hard time seeing a good intention. But when we are doing IFS, we’re always operating from that assumption, that there’s a good intention behind what the parts are trying to do.

Marion Moreland: [00:31:54] Yeah, so often people come in and, you know, there’s a part or multiple parts that carry a lot of anxiety and they’re like, I just want to get rid of it, you know, just get rid of it, lop it off, be done with it. And it can be a real tough shift to begin to have the space to be able to hear like, oh, this part is trying to help me in this way. It’s telling me I needed to be alert or whatever as a child, like I had to be alert to be safe. And it’s doing that same thing now as an adult.

David Edwards: [00:32:35] Yeah. And when we can really get to know our parts, which is a lot of what we’re doing when we’re doing IFS, is really seeking to understand the story behind the part. Then, just like you’re saying, Marion. It starts to get a lot easier to see what it’s actually trying to do. And it might be not doing a great job at it. It doesn’t have good strategies. You know, it doesn’t have the greatest strategies. They’re not super effective. But it’s trying, you know.

Marion Moreland: [00:33:01] Yeah, I think of the line. How’s the phrasing? “Love the sinner, not the sin.” And so loving the part, not necessarily the behavior that’s coming along with it.

David Edwards: [00:33:17] Yeah, that’s a good distinction to make, especially for Catholics as we talk about this kind of thing, that parts are always good and we want to get closer to them and know them. People get really concerned really easily about like, are we kind of talking about like endorsing a sin. That it’s okay to, like we should love the sin? Or that we make excuses for ourselves to sin in some way or do something hurtful. And that’s not what we’re aiming for here. And that’s maybe, especially as Catholics, how we really understand and even adapt a little bit with IFS is we’re coming from a framework where we have a morality here that we know what’s good and what’s bad, what’s right and what’s wrong. And so we can approach our parts knowing, we might know there’s something here that’s not helpful, but that we also know there’s good intention and we want to love that part.

Dr. Peter: [00:34:13] And we will have five episodes this coming year on this whole question of Catholicism and parts work, you know, where we dive into some of that. But just a taste of it right now to let folks know that we are considering those things. And it did come out also in episode 73, which I think is called something like, you know, Is IFS Really Catholic? So you guys can check that out too, if you want something right now, before we get to episode 166. We’re going to be diving into this in a lot of depth because it’s a really critical thing. You know, this is really important that what we do here in Souls and Hearts, on this podcast, that it be absolutely harmonized with what we know to be true by divine revelation. Very, very firm about that in Souls and Hearts and in this podcast.

David Edwards: [00:34:59] Great. A couple of other things about parts then. Some of this maybe we’ve touched on a little bit, but parts can become burdened. And that’s, when we were talking about exiles, they take on the burdens of those difficult experiences that come from them. Protectors take on the burdens of their roles, so they take on these roles. But that they are not burdens, they are not the roles. So an angry part is not just anger or a part that that’s bearing our shame is not just shame. It’s a burden the part has taken on. And parts don’t have to keep their burdens. They can be freed from their burdens. And that’s one of the hopes we have as we work through this model. Parts can blend and unblend, and this means that parts can be kind of, you might say, dormant. They’re not very active. But then, you know, if something happens, a part can kind of take over and blend with the self, with you. An analogy might be like jumping in the driver’s seat of the bus. So we can have one part that just kind of shows up all of a sudden, or maybe gradually, but it’s like this part is in the lead and driving the bus and taking control. But then we can build a relationship with our parts and we can develop a sense of trust with them. And they can separate, they can unblend, they can give us some space and let us be more in the lead, so they’re not taking over like that. So I think that’s worth noting about parts.

Marion Moreland: [00:36:33] I like the idea of realizing we’re maybe never fully unblended. It’s just about where the leadership is coming from. Is this part driving the bus or going off, you know, doing its own thing? I used to play in a band and there were four of us. Most of the time we had a hammered dulcimer player, a bass guitar, I played rhythm guitar, and a flute player. And our hammered dulcimer player sometimes would get a little too enthusiastic, and he’d start playing a little too fast for the rest of the group, and I think that’s kind of how parts work. You know, if we would follow his lead, then the dancers that were trying to dance to us would be really unhappy because they’d get really fast. And so we had to kind of bring it back down and kind of bring that instrument back into sync with the rest of the band.

David Edwards: [00:37:27] Yeah. This is a really nice segue into talking about the self.

Dr. Peter: [00:37:35] The self. All right. So this innermost self.

Marion Moreland: [00:37:37] Mystical self that I hate that word. But yes. It’s not my favorite word but it’s a good concept.

David Edwards: [00:37:45] Ah, I’m curious.

Marion Moreland: [00:37:47] I have a part that thinks new agey when I hear that. And you know, I’ve been doing this for a lot of years and it’s still kind of comes up. But I also have really seen kind of a very different vision that is not at all new agey and if anything is really a fuller representation of our faith. And so most of the time that part will unblend.

David Edwards: [00:38:11] Yeah. Are there other terms you like aside from the self?

Marion Moreland: [00:38:16] I can’t find a better one. Have you?

David Edwards: [00:38:18] No. Well, I mean, I know Gerry Crete will say the innermost self and this is scriptural. And I’m sure we’ll talk more about that in these later episodes.

Marion Moreland: [00:38:29] Highest, wisest self.

David Edwards: [00:38:31] Or the you who’s not a part. This is something Dick Schwartz would say. It’s a little wordy, a little clunky.

Dr. Peter: [00:38:41] Sometimes I’ve heard, like, the true self, but I’ve sort of pushed back against that quite a bit, actually, because it sort of implies that there’s a false self. That came out of some of the self psychology from the 70s and the 80s that sort of said, yeah, there’s an outward facing self. That’s the false self. That’s the image that one projects, you know. And then there’s the true self. And to translate that into IFS terms that would sort of mean like, well, then a part is being called false, you know. And I just react because it’s not that the part is false, it’s just that the part is not the innermost self. These parts are absolutely indispensable to the identity of a person. And so I just struggle with that whole true self false self kind of way of explaining it. I didn’t give you one I liked, I gave you one I didn’t like. But you can see I’ve got parts that are like really about that, right? Because they don’t like that idea of like being labeled as false.

David Edwards: [00:39:43] I do agree with you on that. And just to add to it, it’s also that the part, whatever part maybe is kind of front and center is not the whole. And in that sense, it could be false if we’re kind of projecting or operating as though this part of me is the whole me. And that would be, you know, maybe where the word false self applies. But just like you, I don’t particularly like to use it, true self or false self. And I totally get the concerns, Marion. I feel that too, especially if I say something like self-energy, because sometimes we’ll say that like being in self or because we’re never just fully unblended kind of like you were saying, we have maybe degrees of self-energy being present, and Catholics will easily get concerned about that, like, what’s this energy thing? But I say that, if I’m saying self-energy, I’m talking about, are we bringing the qualities forward that the self possesses. Just to put those out there real quick, because the self is the one within us who possesses these eight C words, eight C’s, the eight qualities that that the self can bring to the parts, which can be really helpful, healing. And those are calm, curiosity, connection, compassion, clarity, confidence, creativity, courage. So if I say self-energy, I’m talking about how much do we have access to those qualities? How much are we able to bring them to our parts right now? But we skipped over kind of a definition of the self.

Marion Moreland: [00:41:29] Yeah, I was thinking that we kind of, my part derailed us. I’m sorry. It gets on a tangent.

David Edwards: [00:41:35] It’s good stuff. Yeah. So I’ll grab Dr. Peter’s definition again and throw it out there.

Dr. Peter: [00:41:42] You know how big we are in definitions here on this podcast. And I do spend a lot of time coming up with these definitions, so I do appreciate that you’re bringing them in, David, Marion. Thank you for that.

David Edwards: [00:41:55] We’re not here to recreate the wheel, so we want to build off your work you’ve done. So, definition of the innermost self. Definition time. “The core of the person, the center of the person. This is who we sense ourselves to be in our best moments. And when our self is free and unblended with any of our parts, it governs our whole being as an active, compassionate leader. In IFS, the self is the seat of consciousness.” And so just to add to that, the self is meant to be a leader and guide to our parts. I liked it as a segue from what you were talking about, Marion, with the band members playing, and this is one of my favorite metaphors. It’s kind of the orchestra where you have the different members of the orchestra playing their various instruments. Each one is important and they have something beautiful to contribute. And the self is the conductor. And the members of the orchestra, if they are, you know, well-trained and they know each other well, that they’ve practiced together, then they can play beautiful music. And, you know, sometimes they don’t even need a lot of direction. They’re just doing their thing, right. But the conductor is over there to lead and guide them, especially in more complex moments, to kind of step in and give some clear direction. Or if one member, you were talking about the hammered dulcimer kind of gets away and picks up the pace or gets a little loud that there’s a conductor who could say, like, bring it down a little bit, buddy. Stay with us. We got this, you know, bring it up. Kind of help the members to work together in a really, really good, really helpful way. Probably my favorite metaphor, at least right now.

Marion Moreland: [00:43:45] Yeah. In our case, it was the bass player’s foot that was acting as self. But, you know, whatever works, right?

Marion Moreland: [00:43:53] I think it’s a hard concept sometimes to wrap our heads around, and anyone who knows me knows I’m not a philosopher, but for me, it feels like it’s the place in us where all the things that have happened to us or not happened to us, or been done to us, or not done to us or done by us, or not done by us, i.e. all that stuff that’s connected to our parts, isn’t in the way of us and our connection to God. Like it’s that pure, most unblemished part. Because all that stuff, all the burdens that the parts have had to carry and the roles they’ve had to take aren’t driving us in a more human response way.

David Edwards: [00:44:42] The idea then in IFS is that the self doesn’t ever go away or get really, the words like blemished or burdened. But that when our parts become very burdened and very active in different roles of protecting, that they can kind of crowd out the self. So we don’t have access to it, but it’s still there, and it still holds those qualities which could be available to us, and that when parts are able to separate and give some space, not take over, not crowd out the self, kind of step back from the driver’s seat, that the self can show up even in someone who’s, you know, some of the most burdened individuals, that the self could show up and bring those qualities that that we were talking about.

Dr. Peter: [00:45:32] That was one of the striking claims about internal family systems, because when I was looking for some kind of model to help understand, like what was going on within, well, first my clients as a psychologist, but then, you know, more and more like within my own life, right, in my own system, that there was, first of all, an innermost self. You know, that there was one that was a leader or a guide within, you know, because you don’t see that in a lot of parts and systems types of models, right. You don’t see that there’s an actual self equivalent in some of these other therapeutic approaches or other ways of understanding parts. But then what was even more striking is that these qualities are said to be by Richard Schwartz and those in IFS, inherent to the self. In other words, that they actually are not something that the innermost self develops through practice and skills and effort and experience, but that they’re actually given to the innermost self. And so IFS is kind of a constraint release model. Like let’s release the constraints so that these eight C’s, you know, the calm, the curiosity, the connection, the compassion, the clarity, the confidence, the creativity, the courage can shine through. I kind of think of it almost like the sun. The sun is like the innermost self, and the parts are like clouds, you know. And so they can kind of occlude the sun to a certain degree, but the light still comes through unless it’s like 100% cloud cover that’s so thick that it’s like dark as night, right? The self can be kind of eclipsed. But if those parts can soften, relax back, allow some space for the innermost self to be more present, more active, to take on its sort of designated role to lead and guide the system, then these qualities shine through.

Marion Moreland: [00:47:30] I wonder, Dr. Peter, you said “lead and guide the system”. I kind of feel like it might be important to make a distinction between self leading and guiding, and a manager leading and guiding, because they’re not necessarily the same thing.

Dr. Peter: [00:47:48] Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things about the self is that it has this breadth of vision, right? It has the capacity to appreciate, to be fair, to be just to parts, you know. It doesn’t get caught up in just one particular point of view or agenda. So yeah, there’s this ability to equitably, fairly, to lead and guide in a way that is good for all the parts. And in contrast, when a part is not in right relationship with that innermost self, when a part is freelancing, taking over because of its fears, its concerns, its intentions to help, there’s not going to be that perspective. There’s going to be an attempt to silence other parts, or to dominate other parts, or to force things. Where in a system that’s being led and guided by that innermost self, there’s more cooperation, more collaboration among the parts, there’s a way of working together inside so that there’s a harmony in that multiplicity. And that really, I think, helps to bring parts together into the unity that we all are. Like I think this IFS way of understanding the person captures both the unity of a person and the multiplicity of a person. It’s kind of like you were saying with that orchestra. The orchestra is one, right? It’s one orchestra, but it’s many, right? There are these different components or different parts of the orchestra, the musicians and the conductor.

David Edwards: [00:49:20] And they play together cooperatively and collaboratively, where sometimes you hear all of them at once in a beautiful harmony, and sometimes you hear more of a feature of a section or, you know, some will play kind of the background rhythm softer, and there’s a solo. And that’s why I love this analogy so much, because it’s like how parts in right relationship with us are operating is that sometimes maybe you’re in a more of like a task mode and getting stuff done, and then sometimes you’re just relaxing and enjoying, but it’s like even the task manager needs to relax a little bit, and even relaxing parts can bring a kind of enjoyment to the work as it’s being done. And this kind of like an integration between different things. But that agenda that you were talking about, you know, to really make that kind of concrete, if a manager is taking the lead and trying to guide the system, the internal system, it’s a lot of times going to be focused on maybe one part in particular or one concern in particular. Again, to make it more concrete, even like for myself in this kind of my coach, when he’s in more kind of the burdened mode and he’s trying to run everything, he’s focused on this exile that feels out of control. Like chaos, it’s chaotic. Kids are screaming. House is a mess. Siblings are fighting with each other. I got stuff to do. I didn’t get it done. And just like I’m out of control. And then that’s what he’s focused on right there, is just the one taking care of this part, and he’s operating in that way. And that’s just, he’s not thinking about other things. It’s kind of a reactive thing, right? Even though I tend to think of that part as a manager, it’s like they’re both here. Versus the self can tend to the needs of this part internally more so. And kind of them to get control of what can be taken control of and allow space for what can’t.

Marion Moreland: [00:51:26] Yeah, I’ve heard it said that self’s real desire is to lead with love and to be able to bring that love to all the parts in the system so that they can function in a more integrated way.

Dr. Peter: [00:51:43] Yeah. Well, that’s what this is all about.

David Edwards: [00:51:48] I wanted to add about the eight C’s and the qualities of self being inherent or innate. What was coming to mind was a little baby or like a one year old. And maybe this is a little easier for me to conceptualize right now, because I have this little one year old, and this particular one year old is a little calmer and easier than some of his siblings were. But these qualities of curiosity, connection, clarity, well, I don’t know, confidence, creativity, courage. Like he will fall right out, walk right off a bed and then go walk off the bed again. And he’s curious and he’s so connected. And you just see these qualities so clearly in a little one like that and in little children. And then as hard experiences happen and parts start to become burdened and protectors step in, then these qualities are the ones that can start to feel unsafe and they get blocked out by parts stepping in. And so it goes to kind of the constraint release. Then our goal and what we’re working towards is to release those blockages that have kind of pushed away those qualities.

Dr. Peter: [00:53:00] Well, I wonder if we can just briefly kind of discuss, like when we’re working with these parts, what are we hoping to get? What are we trying to do? What’s the goal or what’s the end state that we’re kind of looking for? Is it just getting all these parts to be happy? Or like, what’s the vision here?

David Edwards: [00:53:21] There’s a handful of things for sure that we could consider on that. What comes to mind for you, Marion?

Marion Moreland: [00:53:27] Well, I don’t mean this in, like, a dismissive way, but really flourishing. And what does that look like with an integrated system? On a very simplistic level, all the children inside play nicely together, right. That’s really what we’re looking for. But when they are working together, then we really have the capacity to be what God is calling us to be, and to love ourselves and to be able to share that love with others in whatever way our vocation has brought to us.

David Edwards: [00:54:05] Yeah, to me, that’s really taking it right to what’s the end goal. Maybe it’s not quite the end, but it’s closer, is loving and being loved, loving our parts. And when our parts have this deep felt experience of being loved and cared for, then it starts to free them up from the burdens that they’ve carried to have new experiences, because they take on those burdens from being not loved in the ways they needed to be, from a lack of love. This is what they’re burdened by. And in loving them, then being freed up from the burdens, the roles of protecting, then there’s more of this freedom to just be, well, be free, to flourish is a good word for it.

Dr. Peter: [00:54:58] Yeah, that’s what I like about that. Freud said that the best that psychoanalysis could do was to help a person toward a normal level of human misery. It was sort of just to try to get people that were really troubled, neurosis or, you know, he would say, to become not neurotic anymore. But what I’m hearing from both of you and I agree with this, is that, let’s look for something that goes beyond that. You know, like, and I have a lot of respect for psychoanalytic thought. I was trained psychoanalytically and I practiced that way for 15 years. And I still think there’s a lot of good to be found in there. But this, yeah, this actually brings in those really positive elements, right? Sort of an emphasis on not just the resolution of pathology and really a kind of embracing of what’s good and true, what’s beautiful, what’s healthy, and gives guidance toward that.

David Edwards: [00:55:49] Yeah, that makes me think about — so I work with a lot of people dealing with addictive types of behaviors. And you know, so firefighters kind of taking on these roles of, you know. So people will go sometimes to 12-step meetings at AA and whatnot. And, you know, there’s a common idea, like once an addict, always an addict. And so I have a lot of people, especially when we talk about IFS, they ask me, what do you think about that? I see a lot of value in 12-step programs, and there’s a lot of good that can come from them. But I think there can be a real underestimation about just how much a person can become freed up from those burdens and those protective roles of parts, how much parts can become freed up from the protective roles that they had. And IFS gives us this way of moving towards that.

Dr. Peter: [00:56:38] Beautiful. Well, I’d like to, I know that when we talked about this before, before we met tonight, that you were willing to do an experiential exercise. So I’m wondering if this is a good point to transition into that, to kind of offer that for folks.

David Edwards: [00:56:55] Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, we’ll segue into that a little bit. So when you say experiential, I want to give a bit of an idea of what we mean by that. Because so far we’ve been talking about IFS and giving kind of the model of it, the framework of it and what it looks like and what maybe the goals are, what we want to work towards. But then the question is, how do we do that? And it can be very easy to just kind of be in this mode of, we’re thinking about our parts and talking about them, and then we’re going, we’re trying to kind of make some changes in how we live our lives. And kind of like behaviorism there. It’s just kind of change what I do and try to change that part and whatnot. But there’s another thing to it. We don’t just talk about parts when we do IFS. In fact, that might be blended with another part, an analytical part that’s trying to figure out the other parts and what to do with them.

Marion Moreland: [00:57:51] Put them in the Excel spreadsheet. Tried that.

David Edwards: [00:57:55] Yeah, categorize them, box them up, put them where they belong. Even an analytical part like that can be trying to do all the things that self might do, like, you know, bring balance and harmony and integration and love parts, but still be doing it on an analytical level of thinking about it. And that can be another protector. There could be reasons why the part’s doing it like that, but there’s another way. And so we don’t just talk about parts, we can talk with our parts and we can communicate with our parts. Actually, in other ways, besides talking. In the external world, we can talk to each other with words. We can communicate in a way with images, through our body language and whatnot. And we can do all of that internally as well, with our parts and more. We can communicate with our parts through our bodies, our body sensations and what we feel. We can connect with our parts in these ways, as well as just kind of through a felt sense, kind of like a download of information, an exchange of information that occurs in a moment without words. And so this kind of stuff is what we’re talking about when we say an experiential exercise or kind of the methodology in how we do IFS. And I like this idea. I heard it from somebody. He said — he didn’t do IFS at all, he was some psychologist — and he said, you know, if you ask yourself a question, you can get an answer.

David Edwards: [00:59:21] And he was kind of saying, don’t think about it, don’t analyze it. Just ask yourself the question and wait. And an answer will come. Can come. Doesn’t always. But an answer can come. So it’s not just this analysis. I like also the analogy of like, say you see a person from a distance and they’re doing something over there and you’re like, what’s that person doing? And you’re thinking about them like, trying to figure it out. Like what could they be doing, thinking about this or that, but then you just walk up to the person and you talk to them and you say, hey, what are you doing? What are you thinking? And that’s kind of the difference. Instead of just standing at a distance and analyzing our parts, we can connect with them and get to know them. And then it’s not just guesswork. So to that end, we’ll take a little bit of time here for what we call an experiential exercise. Maybe you would think of it like a guided meditation. And I’m just going to offer a little bit of guidance for you, the listeners, to help you to maybe meet, to connect with, and to learn a little bit more about one of your parts, or maybe a couple of your parts. And so as we shift into this, just a couple of words, a couple of things to be aware of as we do this. I’m going to be inviting you to maybe close your eyes if you’re in a place where you can and just to let yourself focus inside, closing your eyes if it’s comfortable to you.

David Edwards: [01:00:50] And so just be aware of where you are. You know, you don’t want to do this while you’re driving or operating heavy machinery. You want to be in a place where you can maybe have some sense of privacy free from interruption, if that’s possible. If it’s not, it’s okay to pause this. You can come back to it later. And as we go through this, it’ll be maybe seven or so minutes, give or take, somewhere around there, just take whatever’s useful. If anything I’m saying doesn’t seem useful, totally okay. If you’re not really staying with what I’m saying, and you kind of find yourself going some direction that’s good for you, just stay with that. No obligation at all to stay with what I’m saying. And just be aware of your emotional state, too, while you’re doing this. If you find you’re getting really, really intensely activated, if there are some overwhelming feelings or if you find yourself kind of shutting down or just feeling overwhelmed or too detached or disconnected in some way, it’s totally okay to just step back. Sometimes it can be important to have some help when we do this type of work. And if you find that kind of thing happens to you, of really getting overwhelmed, then you know, we’d recommend seeking some help with your IFS work through an IFS therapist or coach or someone.

Dr. Peter: [01:02:05] And it’s just important to remember that this is not therapy. You know, sometimes people say, oh, we’re doing IFS, so we must be doing therapy. IFS is a much broader approach than therapy. It’s used in a lot of different ways. And so when we do this, you might think of it, like you had said, like a meditation or some guided imagery. We call it an experiential exercise. And so it’s just an opportunity to kind of connect inside. And you don’t necessarily need a therapist to do that. You know, lots of folks can connect inside without necessarily having the help of a therapist. But if you do find that this is destabilizing you, then let it go. You know, reground yourself, shut it off, you know. And it might be helpful in those situations, if it usually is, to have somebody accompany you with that.

David Edwards: [01:02:48] Yeah, thanks. As well as, you know, if not much happens, if you find you just don’t encounter much and it’s just kind of blank. That’s okay too. A lot of patience, a lot of gentleness, you know, give it a shot again some other time and you can seek again some extra help with it. So that being said, just going to invite all the listeners to just settle in with where you are right now. If it feels comfortable, you can close your eyes. You want to let your focus just go inside to your inner world of thoughts, feelings, emotions, body sensations, images. And this is just a time for you to be with you. For you to be with your parts, to know your parts, to connect with them in some way. So as you do this, just want to imagine kind of opening up some space inside, see if there can just be a little more space for you to be present with yourself. And just seeing what you notice. Maybe you notice something in your body. Some sensation, some tension, some feeling. Maybe you notice some emotion that’s present. Maybe you notice some thoughts that are in conflict with each other, or just some thoughts that are bothering you. Some thought may be about what you’re doing after this. And we’re not trying to do anything with any of that right now, but really just observing and just noticing.

David Edwards: [01:05:32] And whatever you’re with, whatever you’re noticing. Just check in to see and ask yourself, how do I feel toward this part right now? How do I feel toward this sensation, this feeling, this thought? And looking for, do you notice a sense of curiosity toward that? Of wanting to understand and know a little bit better? The sense of compassion. Of openness. Of warmth. If you notice that, great. If not, that’s okay. And just see what you do notice. If you feel more hesitant, fear, resistance. So that’s another part. You just want to see if you can welcome whatever other part might be showing up. And if that part could sit with you nearby as you work with this one. The first one. Check again to see how do you feel toward this first part. And if you feel a sense of curiosity, then in whatever way makes sense to you, just want to extend that to the part. Let it sense that curiosity from you. And just an invitation to that part. What do you want me to know? About yourself or about me? Just take a minute with that. And if you are receiving anything, whatever you’re getting, you just want to thank the part for that. Acknowledge it. Just let it know that you’re getting that. You can ask that part. What do you do for me? What’s your job? How do you help? If there’s not much coming, that’s okay.

David Edwards: [01:09:57] And if there is, again, just let that part know what you’re hearing. Just acknowledging it. Maybe there’s a sense of appreciation for that part, for some of you, as you understand a little bit better. And if there is, just express that to the part. Thank you for your good intention, for your efforts, your hard work. And moving towards wrapping up this exercise, but just stay with it a little bit longer if there’s a part there. Maybe one more question. Just asking that part if there’s anything it would like from you. Anything that would be helpful for the part. Maybe there’s something you could do. Maybe it wants you to check in and say hello sometimes. Maybe just wants you to give it a comfortable chair to sit in. You can offer whatever that part might want. And a lot of gratitude to that part. And if there was any other that showed up that gave you space to stay with this one, a lot of thanks to that one as well. And if this is a really good place for you, then you can feel free to pause and just stay with it a little longer. Otherwise, just going to invite you to just kind of shift focus back outside. Opening the eyes, coming back into the space you’re in. Okay.

Dr. Peter: [01:13:07] Thank you. David. I’m curious. I mean, I certainly had some experiences, but I’m curious, Marion, if there were things that you might want to share about what that was like for you as you entered into that experiential exercise?

Marion Moreland: [01:13:22] Yeah. I’m happy to. It was nice. You know, sometimes we get so busy that we don’t quiet ourselves. Like, I feel like sometimes my check-ins are short and sweet and in between clients or whatever. So it was really nice to have that space. Yeah, for me, what I noticed was a part because I had talked about playing in the band. There was a part that felt some nostalgia because I really haven’t played my guitar because it hurt. I had hand problems, and so I had kind of stopped playing maybe back in 2004 after I went to Ukraine.

Dr. Peter: [01:14:02] Wow.

Marion Moreland: [01:14:03] So that part was missing it. I’ve played since I was like 12, so it was definitely a part that helped me through some really tough times. So just kind of sitting with that and appreciating that that part misses that playing and also noticing, well, I’ve had three hand surgeries in the last year and in theory I should be able to play again. I haven’t tried it yet for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that timekeeper back there that says, you don’t have any time for that. But I think there’s a part that’s like, yeah, you know, maybe we should pull that out and see what it feels like. And I think there was a question you asked in there, David. I think it was, what is this part do for you? The thing that came to me so clearly was it brings me joy. Just, yeah, I mean, there’s other parts that think that’s really interesting when I look back at my history of playing and stuff like that. But yeah, so it was just a really good experience of being able to connect with a part that I haven’t in a while, or I’m not even sure, like it’s not like I can say, oh, that’s this part or whatever. So it’s a newer space for me to kind of explore.

David Edwards: [01:15:27] Thanks for sharing, yeah. What about you, Peter?

Dr. Peter: [01:15:31] It’s really interesting because it was different than what I’ve been coming up with in a lot of ways in my own parts check-ins and my own part sessions where I work with my parts, connect. But I had two of my managers up — my evaluator part, which is my former inner critic, but still evaluates, and then my collaborator part, which is my get-it-done part. You know, the one that really kind of, it’s probably the equivalent or the counterpart to your taskmaster, you know, that you mentioned. And they were both all about sleep. You know, like, not necessarily getting more sleep, but just getting better sleep. I’ve started to exercise again very regularly more lately, and that’s leading to some difficulties with sleep. It just sort of maybe there’s some things we can do to care more about sleep. And so that was interesting coming from them because usually the concerns about sleep come from a different part. So I’m beginning to wonder, maybe there’s more to this than just one part that has concerns about whether I’m sleeping enough or sleeping well enough. So there’s some space to kind of explore that more deeply with my parts. I’m grateful. But yeah, two managers, and that those two are actually sort of also settled down. One of them, my evaluator, was like, we still got good sound? You know, how’s the podcast coming along? Is everybody’s lighting okay? You know, sort of some of those sort of technical things. But it was good to be able to let go of some of those concerns for a little bit.

Marion Moreland: [01:16:53] Yeah. I wonder what was coming up for you, David? As you were doing that like for a podcast. How was that on your parts?

David Edwards: [01:17:04] Well, I’ll answer that. And I also wanted to say that just listening to you guys share those, just how awesome it is that there’s always more. It’s like no matter how long we’ve been doing our own personal work in whatever way or working with our parts, that there’s just this way where we can have an ongoing relationship with our parts. It’s not just like you do some therapy. I mean, you could just do some therapy and IFS therapy and kind of deal with some issues and then go on. But you can have a lifelong relationship with your parts in a really good way. And whenever we face different challenges, just like there’s a way here to work through these challenges and also just to have a great, loving relationship with the parts. So I just, that came up for me as I was listening to you both share right there. For me during the experiential, it’s a little harder to say because I find a lot as I’m doing something like that, I’m almost a little blank. I’m almost just a little bit just right with following the thread of wherever I am right in that moment. But I was aware at a couple of moments that one part thought, “How am I doing here with this thing?” Especially since you mentioned doing this experiential with a bunch of people who are going to listen. And so this part, almost a little, there was a little fear with it, like, how am I doing here? And I think I saw Peter open his eyes and it was like, what’s he looking at? What did I say?

David Edwards: [01:18:45] Did I say something bad? Did I do the wrong thing? And this part that kind of looks out for, my lookout part, top of the mast on the ship, or up on top of the house. Kind of just looking out for mistakes or threats or problems or something that could be a problem. And so that part did show up at least once. I don’t remember exactly, but in some way, maybe without words exchanged, really just had out. And it was like, hey, it’s all right, we can just stay with this. I’m a beloved son of God. Even if I make mistakes or if I said something bad or wrong or something, it’s okay. I’m allowed to do that. And I haven’t done an experiential exercise on a podcast with however many listeners you have now before, so I’m not needing to do this perfectly ever, actually. And especially not for the first time.

Dr. Peter: [01:19:51] Yeah. And I’m so grateful that you were able to do this because you have a different style than I have, than Marion has, you know. And it’s so important to bring those voices in. And I just want to invite our viewers, our listeners, if you’re checking us out on YouTube, if your parts feel good with this, if it seems right and good, if it doesn’t seem like it’s overexposing or steamrolling any of your parts, you can share your experience of that exercise in the comments, and we would love to connect with you there and so forth. So we’re kind of landing this. So I’m just wondering if there’s one, or maybe one and a half, key takeaways that each of you would like to leave us with as, you know, as we think about those that are listening, that might be very new to IFS, what is one thing that you might want them to remember?

Marion Moreland: [01:20:40] Well, I feel like I want to just, on that half thing, offer David’s parts compassion for having been in this situation. I know what it was like when I was guest hosting the podcast a while back and doing a session. I have a lot of compassion for those parts, but just want to offer reassurance. I didn’t hear anything bad. I appreciated the experience.

David Edwards: [01:21:05] Thank you.

Marion Moreland: [01:21:06] Yeah, but for takeaways, you know, we are just scratching the surface of this and we talk a lot about parts and names and things like that. But I think the most important thing that I would encourage people is to have curiosity about your own system. What’s coming up, what’s going on inside of me. Because you deserve to have that attention given to your system, because when you do that, then you will have a greater capacity to love.

Dr. Peter: [01:21:41] Beautiful.

David Edwards: [01:21:44] I wanted to emphasize that point that you just made, Marion, that this is not just self-absorbed navel gazing. It can be kind of easy to be scared off by that idea or that concern, maybe especially amongst, you know, Catholics and ideas about kind of death to self and to forget yourself and to love others and to hate yourself. But there’s a way where we can understand those things that does connect with this work that we’re doing here, and that Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself. And the implication, the implied part is, you love yourself. And we have to love ourselves. And I know that some future episodes are going to spend some more time with these things. And so right to Marion’s point, don’t be scared off. If there are questions like Marion was saying for yourself, like within yourself about yourself. But even if there are questions about this type of way of thinking of yourself, or the approach of IFS, then it’s good to bring curiosity and actually ask those questions. And there can be pretty good answers, actually. And maybe the last thing that I just want to emphasize that came up kind of recently is and we’ve touched on it today, but is the name “internal family systems.” And emphasis on the word family here. That IFS is relational and that we are in relationship with ourselves and meant to be in relationship with ourselves and not in just some kind of like, temporary way or kind of dry or cold or calculated way, but in a very real relational way that’s kind of imperfect and messy.

Dr. Peter: [01:23:43] I’m so grateful that both of you were here, and that we had this time together for this podcast episode. It’s been really been on my heart as I discern, pray about, and kind of see what God’s will is for this podcast, to be bringing in your voices and to, you know, be using this podcast as a platform. You know, we’ve moved away from me doing just solo casts, and there’s no promise that I will never do a solo cast again. But you know, but now we’re at the point where there’s so many other Catholic, you know, professionals that are coming up, just like you, with new approaches and these details. So super excited that we are able to work together on this. And so just a lot of gratitude from my innermost self and from my parts to both of you. Just so grateful. Okay, so super excited. We have launched this whole year-long series, 2025, a Deep Dive into Internal Family Systems. And our upcoming episode, What is the Innermost Self? That’ll be episode 158 with Dr. Gerry, Dr. Peter Martin, that will be coming out on January 20th, 2025. I’m just going to encourage you, if you liked this episode, get on to YouTube, like, comment, and especially subscribe. We’d love to have more subscribers because that’ll help us get the word out to more and more people who are finding us on YouTube.

Dr. Peter: [01:25:07] So also, just so you know, if you’re on the audio version, we have slides, pictures, some B-roll, things like that on the YouTube version. So if you’re used to listening to us wherever you get your audio podcasts, we’re also on video. Conversation hours with me, Dr. Peter, every Tuesday and Thursday from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. Eastern time. You can call me on my cell phone (317) 567-9594 between 4:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. Eastern time, any Tuesday or Thursday for a brief conversation up to about ten minutes or so about anything that’s in this podcast or in any of the other materials that we put out through Souls and Hearts. The Resilient Catholics Community is opening for new members next month. So if you are a Catholic who recognizes the need for structure in your human formation in your life, and you want a program in a community of like-minded Catholics, in relationship with Catholics in small groups, journeying together toward loving God wholeheartedly and our neighbors as ourselves, and if this parts and systems thinking, if this IFS stuff is interesting to you, that’s what the RCC is all about. Check out the Resilient Catholics Community.

Dr. Peter: [01:26:16] You can do an internet search, or you can go to our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. We have about 400 members. We’re in the process, next month, if you’re watching this as it comes out, February 2025, we are onboarding our new cohort. So soulsandhearts.com/rcc. Marion, who is with us today, is the lead navigator. For those of you who are formators. I’m talking Catholic therapists, counselors, coaches, spiritual directors, anyone who accompanies others individually in their formational work, I have something for you. There’s an old Latin saying: Nemo dat quod non habet, you can’t give what you don’t have. And if you are doing formation work with other people, you probably know, some part of you knows, that you need your own human formation work as well. So come and join us in the Formation for Formators community. I’m asking you to consider how you are working on your own human formation. Human formation is the basis of all formation, according to Saint John Paul II in his apostolic exhortation Pastores Dabo Vobis. You need to get that right. You need to get that right in your life. And if this whole approach of parts and the innermost self and systems thinking, the multiplicity of self, if that appeals to you, you don’t just want to start working with somebody else in it. You really want to work with your own parts. You really want to work with your own system so that there’s not negative consequences that happen when you begin to work with somebody else. So I see it all the time. I want you to know that we’re providing solutions and answers to you.

Dr. Peter: [01:27:58] The Formation for Formators community in Souls and Hearts will be starting up with new Foundations Experiential Groups. These are groups of nine people with a IFS-trained facilitator that will start in early March 2025. It’s an excellent opportunity for you to engage in your own human formation, informed by internal family systems and parts and systems thinking, all grounded in an authentic Catholic understanding of the human person. We’re working on removing the beams from our own eyes before we begin to examine the specks in the eyes of those we accompany. So to find out more, check out the Formation for Formators community at soulsandhearts.com/fff. And within that, I want to mention that Marion Moreland is offering a Foundations Experiential Group on Wednesdays from 9:00 am to 10:30 a.m. Eastern time, starting on March 12th, 2025. David Edwards is offering his Love One Another group, that’s an advanced group in the FFF, the Formation for Formators group. That will be on Thursdays from noon to 1:30 p.m. Eastern time starting on March 13th, 2025. And so with that, we’re going to bring this episode to a close, again with a lot of gratitude in my heart. Just so appreciate the time together. And we’ll invoke our patroness and our patrons. Our Lady, our mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.