IIC 143: Fr. Mike Schmitz, Sr. Josephine Garrett, and Archbishop Cordileone on Personal Formation

Dr. Peter: [00:00:00] “The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life. The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the Blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the church, namely Christ Himself, our Pasch.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1324. Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1327: “In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith. Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking.” I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, and I am so glad to be with you. I’m a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, a writer, the co-founder and president of Souls and Hearts, but most of all, most of all, I am a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you taste and see the height and depth and breadth and warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God your father, and also Mary your mother — these two, your spiritual parents, your primary parents. I am here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little child, a beloved little son or daughter of God and Mary.

Dr. Peter: [00:01:30] As many of you know, this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast is primarily about your human formation and secondarily about intellectual formation. So let’s circle back to review in our spiral learning. What is human formation? Human formation is not yet very clearly and directly defined in church documents. In 2022, the USCCB in the PPF6, The Program for Priestly Formation, version six, edition six, in paragraph 204 said that, “Following Saint Thomas Aquinas, human formation should be understood as education in the human virtues, perfected by charity.” That’s paragraph 204. Here is my definition derived from church documents, including Ratio Fundamentalis, the PPF6, and then also Coworkers in the Vineyard of the Lord. The definition that I derived is: “Human formation is education in the human virtues and qualities such as freedom, openness, honesty, flexibility, empathy, joy and inner peace, generosity and justice, chastity, personal maturity, interpersonal skills, common sense, emotional balance, integrated sexuality, and a well-formed conscience so that a person can progress from self-knowledge to self-possession to self-gift, resulting in conformity with the perfect humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the center and foundation of human formation. Human formation is the foundation for the other dimensions of formation and addresses the whole person, including emotions, imagination, will, heart and mind.”

Dr. Peter: [00:03:08] And this definition comes from Human Formation: The Critical Missing Element. This was one of a previous podcast episode and I defined human formation as: “The lifelong process of natural development, aided by grace, by which a person integrates all aspects of his interior emotional, cognitive, relational, and bodily life. All his natural faculties, in an ordered way, conformed with the right reason and natural law, so that he is freed from natural impediments to trust God as his beloved child, and to embrace God’s love. Then in return, because he possesses himself, he can flourish in loving God, neighbor, and himself with all his natural being in an ordered, intimate, personal and mature way. As the US Catholic bishops made clear in the Program for Priestly Formation, sixth edition, in paragraph 181, “The foundation and center of all human formation is the Word made flesh. In his fully developed humanity, Jesus was truly free and with complete freedom gave himself totally for the salvation of the world.” So this foundation and center of all human formation is Jesus Christ our Lord. And we see here the connection between our human formation and the Eucharist. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1374, “In the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood, together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore the whole Christ, is truly, really, and substantially contained. It is presence in the fullest sense. That is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present.”

Dr. Peter: [00:04:57] So what does this mean? Jesus our Lord, the Christ, true God and true man, makes himself wholly and entirely present to us in the Eucharist. Do we make ourselves present to Him? One of the obstacles in making ourselves fully present to Him is in our human formation deficits. In episode 141 of this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, we interviewed two of the architects of the National Eucharistic Congress, Tim Glemkowski and Joel Stepanek. As many of you know, Dr. Gerry and I, the co-founders of Souls and Hearts, received media credentials for the 2024 National Eucharistic Conference. And we’ve been asking Catholic thought leaders at the NEC about how they integrate the four dimensions of personal formation, from Pope John Paul II’s 1992 apostolic exhortation Pastores Dabo Vobis, those four dimensions — human formation, spiritual formation, intellectual formation, and pastoral formation. These interviews are briefer, usually about 30 minutes, and we’ll be releasing them weekly starting next week.

Dr. Peter: [00:06:00] Today, in episode 143 of the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, titled Integrated Personal Formation and the Eucharist, which releases on August 5th, 2024, I want to bring you the thoughts of three key Catholic leaders from the NEC: Fr. Mike Schmitz of the Diocese of Duluth, Minnesota, Sr. Josephine Garrett of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Nazareth, and Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, all of whom were prominent speakers at the NEC. Fr. Mike Schmitz has been a priest in the Diocese of Duluth, Minnesota for more than 20 years and is the director of Youth and Young Adult Ministry for his diocese. He’s also the chaplain for the Newman Center at the University of Minnesota at Duluth. He’s one of the most well-known and popular Catholic figures in the church today. He’s the host of the popular podcasts The Bible in a Year and The Catechism in a Year, and he has a major presence on social media. He was a keynote speaker at the National Eucharistic Congress and one of the highest profile Catholic media personalities today. I was able to talk with him at a press conference on July 18th and ask him this question:

Dr. Peter: [00:07:14] I’m really curious, Fr. Mike. Pope John Paul II talked about how all formation is based in human formation. So human formation, spiritual formation, intellectual formation and pastoral formation. How do you see our encounter with the Eucharist as supporting our human formation, really going to that basic level of human formation?

Fr. Mike Schmitz: [00:07:37] Wow, that’s a great question. Let me get my brain working. No, I would say this. My initial thought would be would be along these lines. Who is it? Was it Tolstoy or was it someone other than that? Another Russian person who had said that all of man’s troubles come from our inability to sit in a room by ourselves for one hour. And there’s some kind of capacity there for human formation. How can I have a spiritual depth if I’m incapable of even just being alone with myself? How can I be alone with the Lord if I can’t even be alone with myself? And so there’s this capacity of self-knowledge, this capacity of self-understanding, this capacity of even just being able to tolerate the voices inside my head and the different desires inside my heart, even just as a human being, in order to be able to be the kind of person who could present that self before the Lord. There’s there’s something about this, because it’s not one, then the next thing, the next thing; it’s more kind of a circular interdynamic. Who reveals me to me? Well, God does. At the same time, if I’m incapable or unwilling to enter into that time of like just being with myself, then I’ll be incapable of hearing the voice of the Lord. And so time with Jesus in the Eucharist would be the exact thing. This is the time we would spend typically — I mean, last night was beautiful with the music, but they also interspersed that time with silence. And there’s something so critically important about us having the capacity to spend time in silence. Then before the Lord, where he tells us who we are and reveals His Heart to us, if that makes any sense.

Dr. Peter: [00:09:02] It’s likely that the quote that Fr. Mike is referencing is from Blaise Pascal in 1670, his book Pensées. That quote is, “All of man’s problems stem from man’s inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” Blaise Pascal goes on to say, “That is why we like noise and activity so much. That is why imprisonment is such a horrific punishment. That is why the pleasure of being alone is incomprehensible. That is in fact the main joy of the condition of kingship, because people are constantly trying to amuse kings and provide them with all sorts of distraction. The king is surrounded by people whose only thought is to entertain him and prevent him from thinking about himself. King, though he may be, he is unhappy if he thinks about it.” And then Blaise Pascal goes on with this really interesting quote, “Those who believe that people are quite unreasonable to spend a day hunting a hare that they would not have wanted to buy scarcely know our nature. The hare would not save us from the sight of death and the wretchedness that distract us from it. But the hunt does.” The hunt does. It’s the process. Fr. Mike asks, “How can I have spiritual depth if I’m incapable of just being alone with myself? How can I be alone with the Lord if I can’t even be alone with myself?” If I can’t be human, how can I be spiritual? Those are my words now. If I can’t be in relationship with myself, how can I be in relationship with God? Identifying that, as St. John Paul II stated directly in Pastores Dabo Vobis, paragraph 43, that “All priestly formation is based on human formation.” Right, that human relationship begins with our relationship with ourselves.

Dr. Peter: [00:10:50] And Fr. Mike alludes to the beginning of the progression of human formation in the PPF6, with that need for self-knowledge and self-understanding. The PPF6 says, “In general, human formation happens in a three-fold process of self-knowledge, self-possession, and self-gift, and all of this in faith.” So self-knowledge, Fr. Mike goes on, “The ability to tolerate the voices in my head. The ability to tolerate the voices in my head and the different desires in my heart.” Did you catch that, when he said that? Here he is talking about parts, even though he’s not using formal parts language. If I’m incapable of entering into a time of being with myself, I won’t be capable of hearing the voice of the Lord. We need to be recollected. We need to be able to be still and silent. We need to have a sense of order inside, not so much chaos. And that’s a critical aspect of human formation. And if we can, Fr. Mike assures us, then our Lord can open his heart to us. Now, in a response to another question at that press conference, Fr. Mike circles back to my question and he answers the rest of it, about how the Eucharist helps us and supports us in our human formation.

Fr. Mike Schmitz: [00:12:05] I think there’s something about our Lord in the Eucharist that grounds us in this place of peace that doesn’t involve comparison, a place that doesn’t involve distraction, and we actually get to sit with what’s going on. So here’s an example. Years ago, we have adoration on our campus all the time, and we used to only have it every morning from 6:45 to 7:45, because we know college students like to wake up super early and go into a chapel and sit by themselves quietly. But we’d be praying and one of our young women, she’d sit in the back and she had her hoodie up the whole time and just arms folded, like, just angry. And at one point she was telling me, she said, “Maybe I should stop going to adoration because I just get so angry when I’m there. Like I’m sitting in the back and looking at Jesus and I’m just so mad and I should stop going.” And then we started talking some more. And it was inside, I think Thomas Aquinas had pointed this out, and he pointed out that silence is the great magnifier. That that time in adoration, it doesn’t cause the anger, it doesn’t cause the pain, doesn’t cause the distress. It magnifies it. Because you don’t have the distractions that can take your mind off of it. Her secret was the secret of the Hulk. Adoration didn’t make her angry. She was always angry. And it was only the fact that she was able to enter into silence that she realized, “Oh, I have this anger in my heart. I need to deal with that in this time. It’s not this time that’s causing it. It’s this time that the Lord is allowing Himself to heal it by revealing it.” Does that make sense? So I think that when it comes to the crisis we’re facing, there’s something along those lines that I think could be really helpful for all people, not just young people.

Dr. Peter: [00:13:32] Being in the presence of the Eucharist allows us to be in a place of peace, a place that doesn’t involve comparison, a place that doesn’t involve distraction. And here’s the point. From a psychological perspective, a human formation perspective, internal and external silence allows space for the unconscious to become conscious. Internal and external silence allows space for the parts of us that carry different burdens, burdens of anger in this case, but also burdens of shame, grief, or whatever it is that we have buried deep inside. It allows for that to come up. The distractions during Eucharistic adoration are diminished. Our internal voices, the voices of our parts, can then be heard. Adoration didn’t make this college coed angry. The presence of our Lord in the Eucharist helped her to connect with anger that was already there, that had been there for years. And our Lord, in the Eucharist, in the Adoration Chapel, helped her to connect with her own heart. And connecting with your own heart, that’s a major focus of your human formation.

Dr. Peter: [00:14:41] And now we turn to Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, who builds on this theme of the necessity of silence in the presence of the Eucharist. That’s in his homily from the Traditional Latin Mass from July 18th, 2024 at Holy Rosary Parish in Indianapolis. That’s been my parish for the last two decades. And this was on the second day of the National Eucharistic Congress. Archbishop Cordileone discusses more of the why of silence, why silence is so important to us as Catholics.

Archbishop Cordileone: [00:15:11] The second principle within the walls of the church is recovering a sense of silence. This is perhaps what disturbs me the most is the din of our churches before and after Mass. I’m old enough to remember a time when people in their church before Mass, they would take time to pray. They would pray to prepare for Mass. It would be quiet in church. And after mass ended, once again they prayed and giving thanksgiving to God and giving him receive. Now it seems, I’ll be honest with you, even in traditional circles where I’ve celebrated Mass, it seems like as soon as the “ite missa est,” “Deo gratias” are said people can’t wait to break out and chat, right inside the church. There is a place for that and a need for that. That place is not inside of a church. So to recover the sense of silence that sensitizes us to the sacred. When one experiences the sacred, there is no other accurate response than silence. Many years ago, I heard a story on the radio about forest guides taking people into our famous redwood trees in California. They spoke about how these trees are majestic. They’re ancient. Hundreds and hundreds of years old. And so they’re so majestic and impressive. They say people respond with silence. This is silence for the beauty that the creator has given us. So why not silence before the beauty of the Creator himself?

Dr. Peter: [00:16:53] We need to recover the sense of silence that sensitizes us to the sacred. God speaks to us in the silence. We have to be able to be silent, not just minimizing the external noise, but also our internal noise, the chaos from the fragmentation inside, the different voices, the parts inside of us. Saint James refers to these as our internal cravings. In his letter, chapter four, verse one, he says, “Those conflicts and disputes among you, where do they come from? Do they not come from your cravings that are at war within you, within your own heart?” We need to quiet our internal civil war so that not only can we engage with God in an intimate and personal way, but because our internal conflicts among our parts spill out of us and they lead us into conflict with other people, other Catholics, other members of the body of Christ. We need the silence. I am reminded of Cardinal Robert Sarah’s excellent book from 2017, The Power of Silence Against the Dictatorship of Noise. I’m also reminded of the 2015 film, Into Great Silence, directed by Philip Gröning, which explored life within the Grande Chartreuse, the head monastery of the Carthusian Order in France. Silence. 

Dr. Peter: [00:18:15] And now to introduce Sister Josephine Garrett. She was a native Texan. Sister Josephine was raised Baptist and converted to Catholicism in her mid 20s. She attended the University of Dallas, where she completed a BA in Political Philosophy with a concentration in business, and then she embarked on a career in banking, serving for ten years as a vice president in the Bank of America. She managed hundreds of employees. She entered the Catholic Church in 2015 and November of 2011. She began her formation to be a religious sister, and she professed her final vows in 2020, as a sister of the Holy Family of Nazareth. Sister Josephine is also licensed counselor and private practice, in addition to serving as the school counselor for a Catholic grade school in Tyler, Texas. She has a high profile in the Catholic media world. She’s a sought-after speaker and at her NEC press conference on Thursday, July 18th, 2024, I was able to ask Sister Josephine about the integration of personal formation.

Dr. Peter: [00:19:14] I’m Peter Malinoski with Souls and Hearts. It’s good to see you. So Pope John Paul II, in Pastores Dabo Vobis, talked about four dimensions of formation. He talked about human formation. He talked about spiritual formation, intellectual formation and pastoral formation. We heard a lot about evangelization, kind of piggybacking off of John’s question. I’m really curious about, especially with your background in mental health, about is there a neglect of human formation and what’s the impact of that neglect of human formation, which Pope John Paul II said is the basis of all formation? And how does that redound to evangelization, and how does it redound to spiritual formation? And how can we integrate those four dimensions of formation so that we can more effectively give witness to our Lord in the world.

Sr. Josephine Garrett: [00:20:10] Yeah. And I’m cheating, Dr. Malinoski, I know what you do for a living, so I think that gives me insight to the place you’re asking your question from. And I’m thinking about the gift of religious life, because the last time we spoke, I shared with you that we took those four domains and they governed my formation. And so when I wrote self-evaluations, we wrote that from them in the pastoral dimension the sisters changed to the CSFM dimension, which was development in our charism, or being rooted in our charism. And so when I think about, saints are made in relationship. Like we don’t become saints in isolation or in a vacuum or in a silo. We have to encounter in order to become the saints that God has in mind that we would be. And so, as a counselor, I do see us too readily dismissing what the field of mental health has to gift to the members of the Body of Christ and the practical things we need to respond to the graces to be saints and the opportunities to be saints in relationship. And so I hear what you’re saying, that there can be a greater emphasis or greater contribution from the gifts of the aspects of human formation to aid in evangelization. For example, if I don’t know how to approach conflict in a healthy way, how can I be an effective evangelizer, right? If I don’t know how to apologize, how can I be an effective evangelizer? If I don’t know how to stretch past my personal communication style preferences, how can I be effective at evangelization? Or as effective as I would like to be?

Dr. Peter: [00:21:52] So here, Sister Josephine Garrett is connecting human formation with pastoral formation, and she brings in how human formation is primary, is essential. Let’s hear more.

Sr. Josephine Garrett: [00:22:04] Pope Saint John Paul II said once in an address he was giving to professionals who were in the field of the psychological sciences. I’m not going to quote it perfectly, because y’all, for a living, should go find the perfect quote. That’s what you do for a living. But he said something to the effect of like, with failure to integrate the psychological sciences into the full Christian anthropological view of the human person would mean we would fail to have the full view. So with the absence of the psychological sciences, we do not have the whole view of the human person.

Dr. Peter: [00:22:37] Okay, so the exact quote from Saint John Paul II was, “Only a Christian anthropology enriched by the contribution of indisputable scientific data, including that of modern psychology and psychiatry, can offer a complete and thus realistic vision of humans.” This was from his address to the tribunal of the Roman Rota on February 10th, 1995. So the Pope is saying that psychology, psychiatry, the social sciences have something critical to offer. We need to bring those insights in. And this reminds me of Saint Augustine and his book De Doctrina Christiana, book two, chapter 40. That book is a theological text on how to interpret and teach the scriptures. But Saint Augustine says that “Moreover, if those who are called philosophers, and especially the Platonists, have said anything that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use.” Saint Augustine goes on to say, “All branches of heathen learning have not only false and superstitious fancies and heavy burdens of unnecessary toil, which we ought to abhor and avoid, but they contain also liberal instruction, which is better adapted to the use of truth, and some most excellent precepts of morality, and some truths in regard even to the worship of the one God are found among them. Now these are, so to speak, their gold and silver, which they did not create themselves, but dug out of the minds of God’s providence, which are everywhere, scattered abroad.” This is really critical. Saint Augustine is saying that we are “to despoil the Egyptians,” he says. That is, take the benefits of secular learning, of other areas of learning that are not specific necessarily to our church. Part of the mission of Souls and Hearts, part of the mission of this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast is to find the gold and the silver in the secular fields of inquiry and claim it for Christ and our Church. Not to wall ourselves off, not to create a false division between the natural and spiritual realms, not to abandon these sciences, but to integrate them in a way that recognizes all of our humanity, that we are embodied beings, that we are body and soul composites. And Sister Josephine picks up on that theme of integration.

Sr. Josephine Garrett: [00:24:48] And so I think to your question about integration. I interviewed a woman recently, I interviewed her a while ago, and that interview was recently published, and I was so impressed with her because it was almost a perfect, tangible example of integrated healing. What it was was an interplay. So she went to her priest and then her counselor, and then her friends, and then her priest and her counselor. And there was this interwoven interplay, and things weren’t in silos, but God was able to reign, you know, not just in this one place or that place. So that’s how I guess I could answer, what is proper integration? It’s to stop limiting the places where God can reign. And so He reigns in my psychological matters and my mental health, and He reigns in my spiritual direction meetings. And He obviously reigns in the sacraments, but He reigns in my work life, and He reigns in your homes. And so I guess that would be proper integration to stop creating blocks to what God is about, or where His graces can be about their work.

Dr. Peter: [00:25:52] God works through all of these dimensions of formation. Human formation does not exclude God. In fact, as a psychologist, I have such an advantage in working with Catholic clients who can seek to have their human formation needs, their natural needs met by their spiritual parents, their primary parents, God the Father and Mary our mother. These are not just spiritual needs being met by our spiritual parents, but the primary natural human formation needs, the attachment needs and the integrity needs. And now, Sister Josephine goes on with a personal example of how human formation is so important in conflict resolution in religious life.

Sr. Josephine Garrett: [00:26:31] You know, there’s grace and God gives us the grace, but we have to respond to that grace. So, for example, I’m thinking right now of the DISC model, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that communication style. I’m a DI. A DI is a lot in the convent, right? It’s a lot in a convent. And so my superior is a pure C on the DISC model. And so when I go to Sister, I could be preoccupied with myself and meeting my priorities, you know? But there’s a part of me that needs to move towards her some. Like, not just disregard my priorities, right? I am who I am and I have needs and that’s okay. But to think of Sister too. And so when I need something done and I know I want it done by Thursday, I go to Sister on Monday because I know she needs time. It’s a process to think about it. And I know she’ll be ready with it by the day that I need it.

Dr. Peter: [00:27:23] I really like it that she is bringing in parts language here. Sister Josephine is discussing how to address the tension between parts that are trying to meet her integrity needs, and parts that are trying to love her superior in a way that meets the needs of her superior’s parts all under the leadership and guidance of her innermost self. Better interior integration opens the door for us to love in a much more attuned way. Better interior integration is not just a nice thing to have for our own self perfection. It’s essential for us to carry out the two great commandments: to love God with our whole heart, that is, wholeheartedly, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Dr. Peter: [00:28:02] And so now some announcements. Starting next week, I’m so excited we’ll be sharing with you about a half dozen interviews from the National Eucharistic Congress. These interviews will be shorter, about 25 or 30 minutes or so, and we will be putting them out weekly instead of two per month. Next up is episode 144 of the IIC podcast, which will release on August 12th, 2024, titled Jason Evert, Chastity.com, and the Integration of Formation. Dr. Gerry Crete, co-founder of Souls and Hearts, and I have a great interview with Jason Evert to share with you on the integration of the four dimensions of personal formation and chastity through his eyes, through the eyes of Jason Evert, how he understands it. He’s very articulate, very thoughtful. I hope you can join us for that. Check out all the episodes in this series on the integration of personal formation, starting with episode 133. We’ve done so many of them now. And if you are a Catholic who recognizes the need for your human formation, you want a structured program in a community of like minded Catholics journeying toward loving God wholeheartedly and journeying toward loving your neighbor as yourself.

Dr. Peter: [00:29:11] And if parts and systems thinking appeal to you, check out the Resilient Catholics Community. You can do an internet search for that, or you can go to our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. We are up to now nearly 400 members, onboarding our largest cohort ever. Get on the interest list for the next cohort. We’ll start accepting applications again on October 1st. We have 55 people signed up for our in-person, three-day RCC retreat later this week. Very excited about getting together for three days. This is our third annual retreat and the title is Let the Little Children Come to Me. And please keep us in your prayers as we go on retreat. If you are a Catholic formator, a Catholic coach, a Catholic therapist, a Catholic spiritual director, a priest, if you’re a Catholic who accompanies others in their personal formation, whether that’s human formation, intellectual formation, spiritual formation, pastoral formation, and if you recognize that you need to work on your own formation — well, we have a community for you. Check out our Formation for Formators Community at members.soulsandhearts.com/fff. We have small groups facilitated by IFS-trained professionals focusing on your human formation. Those start in mid-September. Some of those time slots are filling up now. So check that out. Get on our interest form. Go to members.soulsandhearts.com/fff. Or you can reach out to me at crisis@soulsandhearts.com or on my cell (317) 567-9594. We’ve had a great response from those first coaches and spiritual directors and other formators that have gone through our foundations experiential groups. They’ve completed that first course. They did a great job. They really benefited from it. So I’m excited about that starting up again and getting that community up and going, adding in more than just therapists. You can also join me over the next few weeks in writing your vision statement, and your mission statement, and your value statement in my semi-monthly reflection from July 22nd, 2024. I describe these three key statements and how they can help you focus your life on what’s truly important. Check out those articles at soulsandhearts.com/blog. If you’re not on our mailing list and you don’t get this in your email box, you can do that on our home page at soulsandhearts.com. Click the blue button. But I’m going to be helping you write a vision statement and then a mission statement and then a value statement. And I’m also, if you reach out to me at crisis@soulsandhearts.com, and you commit to doing that, I’m going to help you with that. In fact, if you reach out to me, I’ll give you a link to our meeting on August 19th where we’re going to be discussing this and troubleshooting, kind of doing an experiential exercise with the vision statements. We’re going to be doing this first with vision, then with mission, then with values. We’ll also be talking about goals. All right. So that’s it for today. We’ll wrap this by invoking our patroness and our patron. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

Special thanks to the Human Formation Coalition, who provided the support to make this transcript available.