IIC 146: Restored: Personal Formation for Teen and Young Adult Children of Divorce with Joey Pontarelli

Dr. Peter: [00:00:00] Let’s start today with just one word. Just one word. And it’s not a nice word, I gotta tell you. The word: divorce. Divorce. For many Catholics, this is a difficult word. What comes up for you in your parts when you hear the word divorce? Thoughts. Feelings. Body sensations. Beliefs. Assumptions. Impulses. Desires. What is going on inside you as you hear that word divorce? Can you be curious about your reactions? Where those reactions might come from, what might be going on inside you, within your parts, around this theme of divorce? We’re going to explore the impact of divorce on children and young adults today, in episode 146 of Interior Integration for Catholics titled Restored: Personal Formation for Teen and Young Adult Children of Divorce with Joey Pontarelli, which releases on August 26th, 2024. Let’s do this.

Dr. Peter: [00:01:20] I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter, and I am usually your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, and I am usually glad to be with you. Actually, I’m always glad to be with you when I am with you. But today we are experiencing a first on the IIC podcast. Our beloved Dr. Gerry Crete. Dr. Gerry, he is going to be our first guest host as I take a little time off. So, I am so glad to have my friend, colleague and the co-founder of Souls and Hearts standing in for me in this episode. Dr. Gerry was able to catch up with Joey Pontarelli of Restored, a ministry for teen and adult children of divorce at the National Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis in July 2024. Joey Pontarelli is himself a child of divorce, which eventually contributed to him becoming the founder and president of Restored. Joey is an established podcaster and blogger, and he’s spoken around the US, Europe, and Central America on these themes. His articles have been featured on various blogs such as The Chastity Project, The Culture Project, FOCUS, and in Shalom Tidings magazine. Joey lives in Colorado with his wife Bridget. He is a shining bright light on the impact of divorce, not so much on the husbands and wives who are parting ways, but on their children and their children in their teenage and young adult years. And we need that focus. And he’s not just shining a light. He’s offering help. So I’m going to get out of here and turn it over to Dr. Gerry and to Joey.

Dr. Gerry: [00:02:54] Hello there. I’m Gerry Crete, and I’m excited today to be with Joey Pontarelli from Restored. And we’re going to be talking about human formation and integration with spiritual formation, and to learn about the ministry that he works for. So, Joey, great to be with you.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:03:10] Good to be with you, man. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Gerry: [00:03:12] First, tell me a little bit about you and your background.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:03:14] Yeah, so when it comes to my apostolate, I kind of go back in time a little bit. I was about 11 years old when my parents separated and later divorced, and just brought a ton of pain and problems into my life. I struggled with emotional problems like anxiety, depression, loneliness, a lot of anger for me as a boy. I struggled in my relationships. I was really afraid of love and marriage. I remember, after my parents split, saying, if this is where marriage leads, I want nothing to do with it. And so throughout the years, just love and relationships and dating just seemed really freaky to me. And so I just stayed away from them. And when I eventually started dating, I felt lost, I felt incompetent, I didn’t really know what I was doing. And so a lot of our relationship struggles and then finally bad habits. I fell into pornography. That kind of became my drug of choice. And after a while I knew it wasn’t making me happy. And even as a boy, I knew I wanted to be happy. And so thankfully, I heard Jason Evert speak and he just, you know, told me the truth about love and sexuality. And I was able to get porn out of my life and start living a pure life thanks to his chastity talk. The other thing that helped is I got new friends. The sports buddies I was hanging around with weren’t good for me, and so these new friends were just really happy people. And again, I was miserable, wanted to be happy. And so I’m like, whatever you guys are doing, I want to do that.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:04:25] And so I started to get into my faith, to pray, to build virtue, learn my faith, seek out God’s plan for my life. And it was super helpful, really important things for me. But going into high school and even college, I still felt broken. And so I realized that, after sin, the thing that holds us back the most from becoming the best version of ourselves is our untreated brokenness. And so I knew I needed to heal. And so the question for me as a young person was, how do you do that? Like, how do you heal? And so it just set me on this path of trying to seek answers. And so I’ve done years of therapy, spiritual direction, a lot of prayer, a host of other things as well. But I looked around and I saw how my siblings were struggling, who came from my broken family. I saw close friends of mine who their parents were divorced or things at home were really dysfunctional. And I just recognized, you know, they were struggling often in serious ways. And then I started reading the research and just understanding there’s just this whole host of millions and millions, tens of millions of young people who come from broken families who aren’t getting the help that they deserve. And as a result, they’re often repeating the cycle of dysfunction, divorce, brokenness throughout generations. And so what we try to do at Restored is just help them to heal and build virtue so they can feel whole again, but also just break that cycle in their own lives.

Dr. Gerry: [00:05:34] Okay, so what kind of things or activities or interventions happen to, you know, people coming, are they looking for the same thing, like kind of you were looking for at one time? And what helps them to get there?

Joey Pontarelli: [00:05:49] Yeah, it’s a great question. So for different people it’s different things. For a lot of people, we’ve noticed, kind of like I mentioned in my story, emotional problems are kind of one that causes them to seek help. Relationship struggles, when they actually start trying to build a relationship and think about maybe getting married one day, that kind of surfaces a lot of brokenness where they’re like, I don’t know what to do with all of this. And then bad habits, too. From time to time, especially in the area of sexuality, it seems like so many of the young people we’re working with, there was a lot of sexual brokenness, maybe in their parents lives, infidelity, different things like that. And that kind of spilled over onto them. So they have a lot of struggles there too. So it’s any number of things that bring them to us. And different people have different levels of awareness. But the thing that probably shocked me the most is that this problem of divorce, and how traumatic it can be, is a very undiagnosed kind of hidden problem in our culture. So often in secular culture, but even in some places in Catholic culture, divorce is seen as this, you know, kind of good thing, normal part of life. It’s not really seen as a trauma, which it so often is. And so we’re trying to educate people and just show them the research and tell them stories about like, hey, you know, this young person went through their parents’ divorce and this is how it negatively affected them. But there is hope. There’s ways to heal, to grow, to build virtue so they can live a happy, meaningful life.

Dr. Gerry: [00:07:06] Okay, so if I was like a 22-year-old guy and my parents had divorced when I was ten and I was struggling with porn use, maybe drinking too much or binge drinking or something and, you know, in and out of really crappy relationships. And I was realizing, uh, like, my life is kind of going down the toilet. And I stumbled upon your ministry. What would happen? What would I do? 

Joey Pontarelli: [00:07:30] Yeah, great. And to answer that question, so basically, the two popular resources that we have at this point is our podcast. So it’s called Restored: Helping Children of Divorce. And on that show we interview experts like yourself who, you know, can speak on a particular topic, whether it’s healing or relationships or forgiveness or handling conflict, all the kind of pain points that our audience deals with. We put out an episode every other week and so that’s by far our most loved product. Over 100,000 downloads at this point, five star show, we’re ranked number 18 on the divorce category because we’re actually the only podcast for the children. All the other divorce podcasts are for the parents who are going through it. So that’s one of our resources. And we also bring on people to just share their stories. You know, hey, you know, this is what happened. My parents were divorced. This is what led up to it. This is the ways in which I’ve struggled after it. Here’s how I found some healing and where I’m at in life now. So we like to share those stories because it could be really instructive and helpful for people who are going through it. So that’s one resource.

Dr. Gerry: [00:08:23] So just to be clear, so that enables people to learn like, hey, I’m not alone in this. My emotional turmoil is not just me being strange, when divorce is normal, so what’s my problem? Instead, they’re able to, like, relate and hear stories. And, okay, so there’s some element of connection. I’m not alone in the world. Okay. That’s great.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:08:43] Yeah. And I remember Victor Frankl. I’m a huge fan of Victor Frankl. He’s, for anyone not familiar, he’s an Austrian psychiatrist, and I know you know him. For the audience, if you’re not familiar, he’s an Austrian psychiatrist who was locked up in a concentration camp during World War II. And he, yeah, just understood that the thing that people want most in life is meaning. You know, as you well know, a reason to live that’s bigger than themselves. And so he had just so many deep insights into trauma and brokenness. And one of the things he said that always stuck with me was, “An abnormal response to an abnormal situation is normal behavior.” In other words, it’s like if you go through something really difficult and traumatic in life and then you have a lot of brokenness, whether it’s like emotional problems or relationship struggles, bad habits that you’re falling into, it makes sense. Like you’re not weird. It makes sense. Like, we don’t want to leave you there. We want to help you get out of that and get to a better place. But it makes sense. And so I think when people hear other people’s stories, they see themselves in the narrative. And then they say, wow.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:09:35] Like, well, I’ve been living with this vice, whether it’s porn or drinking too much or binge eating whatever for so long. And I just kind of have accepted it as a normal part of life. But I see this person who dealt with the same thing and they were able to get some help, and now their life is different. It’s transformed. Maybe they’re able to have a marriage now. And it’s beautiful. Not perfect, but beautiful. So those are the sorts of things why we focus on the stories. And neurobiologists say, and you probably know this stuff better than me, but that when you hear other people’s stories, it encourages you to share your own. And when you reflect on your story in an active way, it actually makes your brain healthier. It increases neural connectivity, which, as you know, is one measure of brain health. And so literally, it can make you healthier to hear these stories and then hopefully share your story with someone who can receive it in an empathetic way. So that’s the hope. We also on our website, we have a place where people can actually share their stories because we’ve seen how helpful and healing that can be.

Dr. Gerry: [00:10:25] Well, when you hear someone else’s story and you know they have a narrative and it ends, or, you know, it’s not ending, their life still goes on, but at least that part of the story comes to a better place through the difficulties, then that instills hope. And somebody could be like, I can relate to that story up to this point, but now I can hope that it will go further. So I think that sounds really good.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:10:48] I couldn’t have said it better. That’s so good. Yeah.

Dr. Gerry: [00:10:50] Yeah. Good, good. And one thing I actually love, I love that you quoted Victor Frankl about the abnormal situation calls for an abnormal reaction. It’s normal, because in parts work, right, like we’re looking at our internal parts and this and that in IFS or ego state therapy. And when you encounter a part of you, like I may have a part of me that’s like, I want to do the right thing and I want to like, be holy. And I want to, like, take care of my life. And then I have another part of me that’s going, no, I just want to, like, smoke weed or something and do nothing, right? And so you’re connecting with the part of you that just wants to do the addictive behavior. And on some deep level, that behavior was unhealthy, always unhealthy, but it was an unhealthy response to an unhealthy way of being treated or an unhealthy environment or an unhealthy situation. So an abnormal reaction is normal to an abnormal, you know, effect. So I totally see that connection. And so what that part of you recognizes, no, I get it. You’re having a normal reaction given the circumstances. But if your real need here is self-soothing, or your real need is affirmation or your real need — that’s what this part of me is trying to get in this unhealthy way. There’s an invitation; let’s do it in a healthy way now. Like we’re not going to banish that part and just say, oh, you’re bad or something. Instead it’s like, no, I get you now. And then there’s that affirmation like, oh, that part of me, that deep part of me that is dysfunctional is going, oh, somebody understands me.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:12:23] I love that. Because I think everything you said is so good. I think so often when it comes to brokenness in our lives, like we see a broken area of our life, like you mentioned, maybe a bad habit. And we think we need to amputate that part of our heart or part of our self. And I think what you’re saying is we need to integrate it. It’s there for a reason. And like you said, if you go under the surface and realize, well, what need am I seeking to fill? And then if you can find a healthy way of doing that, then, that’s what I hear you saying. Is that right?

Dr. Gerry: [00:12:51] Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:12:53] It’s a much better approach.

Dr. Gerry: [00:12:54] You used the word integration, and I like that. When we have parts that are dysfunctional because, through different pains and wounds, like divorce or whatnot, we naturally banish those when we’re trying to be good. And then they show up when we’re weak, like something’s going on in our lives or whatever. And then they show up again, and then we get into this cycle, right.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:13:14] So it makes so much sense. And I’ve been there and that’s like that’s one of the things with doing this apostolate. You know, I definitely see myself in so many of the young people that we’re serving, and we typically serve like teenagers and young adults. So anyone we say from like 13 to 35 or so and, you know, like I said, different people are at different stages, but there’s a lot of people struggling. And the thing that always shocks me, too, is you could look at someone whose life is functional, they might even be high functioning. But when you get under the surface, as I know you do as a therapist, so often, you realize, wow, things are pretty broken and a lot of people need help. And so it’s humbling. But there’s a lot of hope to to see that people are actually putting in the work that you’re saying and trying to become that healthier version of themselves.

Dr. Gerry: [00:13:55] Okay, yeah. Great. So they have, when they’re entering your program, so there’s that connection on the show, like listening to stories and so on. And then what happens?

Joey Pontarelli: [00:14:04] Yeah, we’re building out further. We’re really a new apostolate. So we’re building out more. We’re in the process of kind of talking to our audience and figuring out like, where are you struggling and what do you need? If I’m honest, one of the programs we’re thinking of building in the future is called The School of Love, where we pair up young adults, probably 18 and older, who come from broken families with healthy marriages and families so that they can just spend time together. Because one of the things that was so helpful in healing for me is spending time with healthy marriages and families. So there were two couples growing up, the Kellers and the Cheathams, and I would spend time at their house just having meals or hanging out with the family. It was just so instructive. Like one, it helped me realize that marriage actually can be really good and beautiful. Like it’s not just all misery, it’s not perfect, it’s not utopia. But it can be really beautiful. Because I thought it just all ended in misery. And so that was one thing. It gave me hope that I could do it myself one day and even showed me a bit how, oh, okay. When they disagree, they’re not yelling at each other and then slamming doors and never resolving it. They’re actually like being respectful. There’s a resolution. It was so foreign to me. So that was really helpful. So we’re trying to facilitate that. So we’re in the early stages of that program.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:15:08] Another thing we have is a book, putting out a second book as well. But the first book is just a question and answer format, on the 33 most pressing challenges that young people from broken families face, everything from the emotional problems, like we talked about, just dealing with the trauma of their parents’ divorce, navigating their relationship with their parents, which can be super challenging at times. Making life decisions. One of the struggles we’ve noticed in our audience is that so often, they just feel stuck and they don’t know how to make decisions, and so they stay at that stage of life forever. They don’t go into the next chapter because they’re just honestly paralyzed by fear, so often. I’ve been there too. And so that’s the book. It’s called It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce. So that’s another thing as well.

Dr. Gerry: [00:15:47] The part you just said there about fear is really interesting to me. And then you said you’ve been there. And so, when you can recall experiencing fear and through that divorce and everything else, what was under the fear in terms of what you believed? I’m not going for a truth here. I’m thinking like, usually there’s this deeper lie that is, like, troubling. And then the fear is the response to that inner lie. I’m just curious if off the cuff, what would that be?

Joey Pontarelli: [00:16:16] No, I think there’s some there’s so many different fears I had and have. And I’m not perfect by any means now, but I’ve certainly worked through a lot of them. And just looking at love and relationships, I would say that’s where I felt it the most strongly. I think the belief underneath it all was that kind of like I mentioned, love doesn’t last. Like, even if it’s good for a time, eventually it’ll crash and burn. And so if that is true, then love is a really scary thing. It’s like almost walking through a minefield, like you’re about to lose your leg or something. So that really controlled me. So I remember in my first serious relationship, you know, early on in college, just really loving at arm’s length. I remember just not really letting the girl in, you know, not really sharing much. I remember at one point the relationship kind of devolved, and I was just really afraid to kind of address the problems we were having. It wasn’t anything super serious, but I just didn’t know how to do conflict. And so I remember, you know, we were talking like once a week or something. I just didn’t know what I was doing in relationships. And I think that was driven by the fear. It was driven by the lie that love doesn’t really last. Eventually we’ll crash and burn.

Dr. Gerry: [00:17:16] Yeah. Wow. That’s profound. And love doesn’t last. Or love is not really safe. What does that say about you? You didn’t know this was going to be therapy!

Joey Pontarelli: [00:17:25] No, I kind of had an inkling after we were talking last night. But, what does it say about me? It’s a good question. I think the way I put it in college was I felt like a gift that wasn’t worth giving, or at least wasn’t worth keeping. That maybe at the beginning of a relationship, you know, I can do kind of the flashy wrapping paper and interest someone and have some fun. But then once they got under the surface, I was just afraid that I wouldn’t be enough and they would realize how imperfect and broken I am, and they would want to just leave and they wouldn’t stick around. Like what happened with my parents. And so I think that the fear of abandonment was certainly there in that belief that I’m just not really worth keeping.

Dr. Gerry: [00:18:05] Yeah. That’s profound. Yeah. Thank you. I think that, so underneath that fear and everything is this I’m not worth loving or I’m not worth keeping, because that’s a powerful thing. I see that therapeutically in working with people, like the two things that you always do discover, that’s deep down in the heart of some parts at least, is I’m either I’m unlovable or I’m unworthy. Which are the two biggest lies, right? The two biggest lies that the enemy wants us to believe, and such an opposite of the way God sees us, right? God wants us unconditionally, always, like the most perfect, loving father, even when we mess up. And we’re always his child. We’re always, you know, wanted and loved. And yet what divorce does is it causes us to doubt that truth. So, pretty profound.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:18:55] That’s super profound. And I think it’s one thing to know that intellectually, cognitively. But to believe that, like in your core and your bones is a totally different experience, I’ve learned. And so, yeah, I think the work that you do is so good of like, not just staying on the surface, but going underneath and trying to help people to, you know, uproot those lies. Kind of, the way I like to talk about it is like you suffocate them with the truth and then you’re able to, you know, without discounting them or throwing them away, like we said before. But you’re able to live out of a place of freedom. And I think that’s really what we’ve come to. I’m no expert when it comes to, you know, therapy or healing. I’m not a psychologist. I’m a business guy. But I just really have a heart for this audience, this group of people. But when it comes to healing, I think the ultimate end of it, from what I’ve seen, is freedom. It’s really like freedom. Obviously being like healthy and whole to whatever possibility that looks like in your life, the fullest potential in your life. But freedom from addiction, freedom from bad habits, freedom from emotional problems, freedom from, you know, just fear controlling your life so that you can love and not just freedom from, but freedom for too. So you can give that love away and be able to serve others. And I know, as men, to use our strength in like a really good and beautiful way. So it’s humbling to see, I think even in myself, like where God has brought me and then where he wants to bring me even further because I’m not done yet. I have a lot of work to do.

Dr. Gerry: [00:20:11] Yeah, yeah, well, me too. Yeah, it’s all part of it for sure. For sure. Cool. So where do you see the ministry going in the future?

Joey Pontarelli: [00:20:19] Yeah, like I mentioned, we’re just trying to really understand our audience and what they need. And so we’re really having deep conversations with them right now, using this kind of business nerdy thing. But we’re using this framework called The Jobs to Be Done, comes from Harvard. And it’s all about like figuring out, like, how do you actually serve your audience in a way that they really want what you offer. So we’re trying to figure that out. But some of the other ideas, like some of the things on our vision board, is to make it really easy actually to find therapists. That’s a really big pain point for our audience. They know that they want to do therapy. That’s actually one of the outcomes of listening to our podcasts. People, like, go from maybe an unawareness of their brokenness, or at least how it connects to their family and all the trauma that went down, maybe with their parents’ divorce or dysfunction. And then they become aware and they’re like, wow, I have this like gaping wound or this disease in me that’s kind of hidden, I need help. What do I do? Who do I go to? And so we’re working on building a network of therapists who we trust and recommend, people we can send to. And so it’s tricky. You know, we have people all around the world who want help, especially in the States. And so we’re trying to figure out how do we do that in an efficient way and using software and automation and all that. So that’s one of the things.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:21:26] The School of Love, I would say, has the potential to become our biggest program. Then we might move to like a mentorship model, too, because there’s a lot of people who, they just want to be walked with, you know. Like for me, as a problem solver type A business guy, I’m thinking like, okay, we need like these solutions and products that they can like follow these five steps. What I’ve learned too is like, healing is so personal. That yes, there’s principles that pertain to every situation, but by and large, like you need to just walk with an individual person. And so for me, that’s been eye opening that people just, they want to be validated and heard in their brokenness and then just kind of walked with so they can get to a better place. That’s one of the things I would say in my life has been most healing, in addition to the things I’ve mentioned is, you know, spiritual direction and the mentors in my life who just loved on me, who’ve affirmed me as a man and who’ve just helped me to grow in virtue and different things like that. And so I know I definitely wouldn’t have been able to get married if it wasn’t for people like Jason Evert, who’s been a mentor of mine over the years, who’s helped me through relationship challenges. My spiritual director as well, who really just guided me so wisely and loved on me and helped me to just feel more secure as a person and, you know, feel more, kind of fight that lie I mentioned about feeling like I wasn’t enough and unlovable, like you put it so well.

Dr. Gerry: [00:22:38] Yeah, no, I love it. And, you know, if you need help with finding therapists, I mean, our site is Souls and Hearts. We list all therapists who are IFS trained or informed. There’s the Catholic Psychotherapy Association has a directory of Catholic therapists, and there’s catholictherapists.com also. So there’s at least for the Catholic point of view, we have that, quite a few.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:22:59] I love it. I just saw your site and I was like, you guys have done a lot of the work. So yeah, we’ll definitely have to talk about how we can, you know, because coming from the business world, maybe build some software around making it easier to find. Because BetterHelp came to us and said, hey, we want to sponsor your podcast. And I’m just so hesitant — not to bash them in any way — but, you know, it’s so important as, you know, as a therapist to have like a proper anthropology. And secular therapists, if they are very competent, I think they could be really good even helping a religious Catholic person. But by and large, I’ve seen that you need that proper anthropology to be able to really help someone and the, you know, Catholic beliefs, the Christian worldview, offers you that proper anthropology, that understanding of the human person, which I think is so, so important for any sort of healing.

Dr. Gerry: [00:23:41] Yeah. Well, Joey, it has been such a pleasure to get to know you. And I wish you well. And it sounds like an exciting ministry and work that you’re doing. It sounds like it’s got a lot of place to grow because there’s, I think there’s a lot of need here.

Joey Pontarelli: [00:23:52] I appreciate it. And if people want to look at any of the resources, they can go to restoredministry.com. Ministry is just singular. restoredministry.com.

Dr. Gerry: [00:24:01] Awesome. Great. Thank you so much.

Dr. Peter: [00:24:04] Thank you, Joey. And thank you, Gerry, for opening up such a great discussion and for making it both personal and professional. And I invite you to get in on the conversation. Feel free to leave a comment or question in YouTube and make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, Interior Integration for Catholics. And if you like this episode, give us a like, right? We’ve got resources for you below in the comment section on YouTube as well. When you like episodes, especially when you subscribe, that really helps us get the word out to people who could really benefit. Joey Pontarelli recently had me on as a guest on his podcast, Restored: Helping Children of Divorce. Check out that episode where we do an experiential exercise, debrief from it, and then Joey does some of his own work around his parents’ divorce and his parts’ reactions to it. Now, if you are a Catholic therapist, a spiritual director, a Catholic coach, a seminarian formator, or any other faithful Catholic who accompanies others professionally on an individual basis, and if you also know that you need to work on your own human formation, check out our Formation for Formators Community at members.soulsandhearts.com/fff. Why do we offer this Formation for Formators? Well, it’s because our bishops have demanded it. If you go to Coworkers of the Vineyard of the Lord, a USCCB document from 2005, talks about how ongoing human formation, ongoing spiritual formation, ongoing intellectual formation and ongoing pastoral formation is critical for those of us that accompany others. So where can you get that? You can get that ongoing formation at soulsandhearts.com, especially in our Formation for Formators Community.

Dr. Peter: [00:25:44] Now shifting gears here, if you are a Catholic who recognizes the need for structure in your human formation in your life, and you want a structured program in a community of like-minded Catholics in relationship with other Catholics in small groups journeying together toward loving God wholeheartedly in our neighbors as ourselves, and if parts and systems thinking appeals to you, check out the Resilient Catholics Community. You can do an internet search, or you can go to our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. We are up to nearly 400 members now, onboarding our largest cohort ever. Get on the interest list for the next cohort. We reopen the RCC on October 1st for new applications. soulsandhearts.com/rcc. For those of you that are into writing your vision statement, your value statement, and your mission statement, go to soulsandhearts.com/blog. 50 have already gotten in touch with me on that. You can jump in the middle of this and join us. We’re actually starting to meet. We’ve got our first video up of the discussion around vision statements, people sharing their experiences, sharing their drafts of mission statements and the issues they’ve had with it. So vision statements, really critical. We’ll also be doing value statements coming up shortly. So with that we will wrap this. Again, thank you to Dr. Gerry. Thank you to Joey for such a great conversation. And with that, we will invoke our patroness and our patron. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of knots, pray for us, Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

Special thanks to the Human Formation Coalition, who provided the support to make this transcript available.