IIC 148: The Integration of Personal Formation at Franciscan University

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:00:00] Because oftentimes, I think there’s a danger in the church is that we overspiritualize at times and we fail to recognize the necessity, particularly for young people, at that human formation that is so essential for them on every level — the professional level, the family level, what kind of father you’re going to be, what kind of a mother, what kind of a boss, what kind of employee. All of those things actually matter.

Dr. Peter: [00:00:21] There’s a danger in the church of overspiritualizing. He’s talking about spiritual bypassing here, neglecting the need for human formation. Human formation, which is the basis of all formation according to Saint John Paul the second. And what is the result of neglecting human formation?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:00:41] And I would say that many of the struggles we’ve seen in the church over the last 50 years is the lacking, I think, of human formation.

Dr. Peter: [00:00:48] Many of the struggles we’ve seen in the church in the last 50 years are due to the lack of human formation. Boom! Mic drop right there. I couldn’t agree more. And welcome to a new episode of this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics. That’s the name of this podcast, Interior integration for Catholics.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:01:11] I love you’ve used the word integration and my suspicion is you love that word, but I love that word. And I think it’s absolutely essential, particularly in a university.

Dr. Peter: [00:01:20] And as you know, dear audience members, I do love that word — integration. It’s absolutely central to this podcast and to all our work at Souls and Hearts. Integration, especially interior integration. And for who? For Catholics. What are we talking about here? Interior integration for Catholics. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, also known as Dr. Peter. I am so pleased and honored to be your host and guide in this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, and I am so glad to be with you. I am a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist, a podcaster, a writer, the co-founder and president of Souls and Hearts. But most of all, most of all, this is most important. I’m a beloved little son of God, a passionate Catholic who wants to help you taste and see the height and depth and breadth and warmth and the light of the love of God, especially God your father, and also Mary your mother, your spiritual parents, your primary parents. I am here to help you embrace your identity as a beloved little child of God and Mary, and also to embrace your identity as an heir to everything that God has, that he wants to give us. We are continuing our ongoing series on the integration of personal formation, bringing in the best, the brightest, the most creative and influential Catholic thought leaders in the personal formation space.

Dr. Peter: [00:02:57] We focus on practical, real-life ways that these Catholic leaders are living out in the integration of the four dimensions of personal formation, how they are forming others — human, spiritual, intellectual and pastoral formation. And today, in episode 148 of the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, titled The Integration of Personal Formation at Franciscan University, which releases on September 9th, 2024. I am so pleased to bring you Fr. Dave Pivonka, president of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, to share with us how the university experience forms their students. Now, as some of you know, I’ve been thinking, writing, and sharing about vision, values, and mission statements, personal vision, values, and mission statements. These are in my semi-monthly reflections starting on July 22nd, 2024. You can check these out in my archive at soulsandhearts.com/blog. And I thought I would share with you the vision, values, and mission statements from Franciscan University, as I really liked them. These are from the website franciscan.edu.

Dr. Peter: [00:04:04] The vision statement: “In the 13th century, Saint Francis of Assisi responded to God’s call to rebuild my church. Today, Franciscan University of Steubenville continues to answer that call. Like Saint Francis, we know this commission means envisioning a church and a world renewed, Catholics so well-formed intellectually and spiritually that they live as powerful witnesses of the gospel across every career and vocation. Parishes with full pews and even fuller hearts and problems met with civil discussions, scholarship, and research that work toward the common good.” I really like that. They mention so well-formed intellectually and spiritually. But I will be asking Fr. Dave Pivonka also about human formation and pastoral formation. The mission statement of Franciscan University: “Franciscan University of Steubenville educates, evangelizes, and sends forth joyful disciples empowered by the Holy Spirit.” And then the three core values at Franciscan University of Steubenville: 1) Encounter. 2) Conversion. And 3) Community. Those are very relational, very personal. And Fr. Pivonka and I will be discussing these in depth. Okay, so a little background on Fr. Dave Pivonka, TOR. That TOR stands for Third Order Religious, and he became the president of Franciscan University of Steubenville in 2019, 30 years after he graduated, after he earned his undergraduate degree from Franciscan. He is a prolific, he’s an established Catholic speaker, author, podcaster, and video producer, and he received his bachelor’s, as I said, from Franciscan University, then went on to earn an MDiv and MA in theology, a doctorate in education, and an executive juris doctorate, that’s in law. In 1996, he was ordained a priest in the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Province of the Franciscan Third Order Regular. Before his election as university president, he served in leadership at Franciscan University in a variety of capacities over the last three decades, including as vice president for mission and planning, then as director of the post-novitiate formation for the Franciscan Friars Third Order Regular, and also the TOR’s Franciscan Pathways. That’s their retreat ministry. All right, so let’s get on to the interview.

Dr. Peter: [00:06:28] I am very happy to be able to bring to you, all of you in the audience at Interior Integration for Catholics, Fr. Dave Pivonka, president of the Franciscan University at Steubenville. And this is part of our ongoing series. He has been with the university for 20, 25 years. It’s been a long time. And so really familiar with the university from the inside out. And during that time, as many of you know, Franciscan University has experienced growth, the addition of programs, has a number of different graduate programs. And so I’m really interested in, as we go through this whole process of understanding how to integrate these four dimensions that Saint John Paul II has given us — human, spiritual, intellectual, and pastoral formation. Just to be able to get into that. But before we do, I always love to start with what the vision is and what the mission is of the university. So if you could start us off, just with the big picture.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:07:28] Perfect. Yeah, the vision is to be able to impact the world for Christ. It’s not that complicated, right? And one of the things that I love of Saint Francis. And we could make this whole podcast about Saint Francis, but we won’t. But Francis believed if the world was going to be transformed, that it was going to have to be transformed from the inside out. That Francis would stand on the edge of the Umbrian valley, and he would look out at the valley and he would say, “The world is going to be my cloister.” And that’s a fundamental difference that was taking place in religious life at that time. It was largely building walls. The monks or the friars were behind one side and the people of God. And Francis said, “We’re not going to do that.” And then he would move on, near the end of his life, and really understand that there had to be a greater intentionality to that. So he created what’s called the third order, which is what I’m a part of. And his point was, is that if the Third Order Regular — not to be confused with the secular, but there’s a similarity — was going to go in and they were going to be the teachers, they were going to be the doctors, there were going to be the business people. And that’s how the temporal order was going to be transformed. So we really see that as what Franciscan University is about is, is to transform the temporal order. The mission of the university is to graduate joyful disciples in the power of the Holy Spirit, is that we want men and women to go out there and be in their fields and do their professions and have their families and bring about transformation for the world.

Dr. Peter: [00:08:44] So it happens within the self first. And then radiates outward.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:08:51] Absolutely. I love you’ve used the word integration. And my suspicion is you love that word. But I love that word. And I think it’s absolutely essential, particularly in a university. The intellectual life is obviously important. It’s a part of what we’re doing at the university. But if you’re simply creating the intellectual life, the Scripture that goes to my mind, “What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul in the process?” So that it cannot be merely an intellectual exercise, but it’s got to be an exercise of the human person.

Dr. Peter: [00:09:19] One of the major changes between the Program for Priestly Formation, fifth edition and the sixth edition, was the shift in language from four pillars of formation to four dimensions of formation. I really support that shift in language, because four pillars of formation could be sort of seen as four silos of formation. And that’s what you were just talking about here. A lot of times people, they think about going to the university and it’s to get an education, right. It’s to be intellectually stimulated.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:09:49] Essentially, it’s just that language — “to get an education.” I would say, “to be educated.” And those are two fundamentally different statements.

Dr. Peter: [00:09:55] Two fundamentally different things, yeah. Well, I mean, we tend to, in our culture, I think, objectify things, and we tend to look at it as a means to an end, like it’s profession training or something like that, so that we’re going to get ahead with this in some way. So tell me a little bit about like, 18 years old. I know you have older students too, but 18 years old, coming in, a wide variety of backgrounds. How do you think of the relationship between that student and the university in terms of that student’s integrated formation?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:10:25] Yeah, so at the university, we really focus on three core values that really give purpose to what we’re doing. And they are encounter, conversion and community. And this invitation to encounter Jesus. But one of the things that we want to be really clear is that one does not encounter Jesus only in the Mass or only in adoration, but he encounters in the classroom. I mean, I’m a graduate of Franciscan University, and some of the most profound experiences I had of Jesus was sitting in a classroom and something that the professor said… So it’s just this opening of the mind. But then also the encounter of Jesus in the classroom, in the chapel, in the recreation fields, in the athletic fields, in the residence halls and the cafeteria. This creating a culture of encounter. That’s obviously the language of John Paul, this invitation — and Benedict — of culture, of encounter — and Francis. But ultimately that’s to lead to something, and that is to lead to conversion. You can pay attention to Scriptures and you can have people who encounter Jesus, but it didn’t necessarily lead to a conversion. I think of the rich young man. What must I do to inherit eternal life? I’ll come back to that in a second. But he walked away, sad. And honestly, that’s a tragic story. He walks away from the Lord, sad. And then the third is community, is that we do this in community. So we see this as a holistic, integrated experience that the student has. Now from the intellectual part or from the academic part — we just, we’re very pleased, we just built a new academic building, the first academic building we built in a number of years, it’s the largest building on campus.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:11:44] I don’t know if you know Dr. John Bergsma. He’s a theologian at the university. So John is just an outstanding theologian, but he was talking about this, because at this particular part of this building is the engineering, the business, and the nursing. And he said it wouldn’t be a Catholic university if it was just theology, that there has to be the integration of the other areas of study, so that that’s what we see as far as the academic life. And then finally, John Paul challenges and invites the Catholic Christian to what he would speak about as a personal vocation. Now, oftentimes when we think of vocation, we think of the vocation to the married life or to the priesthood. And certainly those are primary vocations. But there’s a more personal, I think, call — and that’s why he calls it a personal vocation — in to answer the question of the rich young man, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” And our desire is that every student be able to answer that question when they graduate. What is the Lord asking you to do? What is he asking me to do? And that means all the things that you just mentioned. Our office of personal vocation is human formation. You know, what are those, the brokenness, the things in our heart that don’t allow us to fully be free, to be able to identify those, transform those, change those. But it’s the intellectual life, it’s — I just read a little bit about what you’re doing. It’s exactly what we’re trying to do at the university. So we should do something, right. But yeah, but that’s the point is that when a student graduates, it’s not just this intellectual. They don’t just get a degree, but that they themselves have been changed and transformed.

Dr. Peter: [00:13:07] I have seven children. Five of them are old enough to go to college. And so as a parent, you know, I’m looking at like, what is the impact of the university experience going to be for my son or daughter? Well, oftentimes 18-year-olds are looking at this in a very different way. They’re looking at it in terms of where are my friends going? Or, you know, does it have the major that I’m interested in this week, you know, or something like that. And so, I’m really curious about like what kind of message you have for parents, as they consider, you know, this launching of their children. You know, and how does that fit in with what you’ve got going on?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:13:47] You’re fine if I share on a personal level?

Dr. Peter: [00:13:48] I would love to hear where you are on a personal level, yeah.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:13:51] Yeah, because honestly, it’s an interesting thing that I’ve experienced over the last many years. And that is parents pay close attention on where their kids are going to elementary school and high school, and yet they abdicate in some ways the responsibility of helping their kids with that as it goes to college. And the reality is, every statistic shows, as far as a relationship with Christ and relationship with the church, the five years after high school are the most important years of their life, right? Terrifying statistic — 75% of kids that are going to church, when they graduate, within five years, are not going to church anymore. So, that you choose a place that takes seriously the faith life and the intellectual life — and those two things are not in competition with each other. Rather, they actually illuminate each other. So I think that’s a part of it. And then ultimately, again, the first thing I said when I became president at the university, the first address I gave to the students and staff and faculty is — particularly to the students — is my job as president is not finished until you hear the Lord say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” It’s that we want to form young men and women that are outstanding doctors and outstanding engineers and outstanding teachers and outstanding nurses. But what does it profit if you’re not growing in the spiritual life? So we really want to be a part of forming the, I just love, because oftentimes, I think there’s a danger in the church is that we overspiritualize at times and we fail to recognize the necessity, particularly for young people at that human formation that is so essential for them, on every level, the professional level, the family level, what kind of father you’re going to be, what kind of a mother, what kind of a boss, what kind of employee. All of those things actually matter.

Dr. Peter: [00:15:25] You know, paragraph 43 of Pastores Dabo Vobis, Saint John Paul the second, “Human formation is the basis of all formation.” It’s the basis of all formation.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:15:34] And I would say that many of the struggles we’ve seen in the church over the last 50 years is the lacking, I think, of the human formation.

Dr. Peter: [00:15:41] I talk about this, as a psychologist, I was stunned, early in my career, to find that so many spiritual problems are spiritual consequences of human formation deficits. You know, if you have a really toxic image of your father because of difficulties in that relationship, it’s going to impact your capacity to see God as father, right? That’s a spiritual consequence of a human formation issue. So I really am appreciating you hearing this and bringing in this human dimension. So when students are in there, they’re in for six weeks. The six week mark, freshman year and some of them are struggling. What are you seeing in terms of these four dimensions of formation that are really common? What’s your sense of like the typical issues that that students are facing when they come to you?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:16:29] Well, one of the things is that we’re trying to create is a place where… First off, the world that we live in, it’s unfortunate if we use the word safe, it’s kind of a negative, but we really create a place where they’re safe, where they feel comfortable, where they feel they can actually be honest, honest with themselves. And maybe it’s not happening at six weeks. At six weeks, they’re still pretty anxious about, you know, the new students, about where I am, where, you know, all of those kinds of things. But the point is well taken, is that we create an environment where it’s okay for the students to say that they’re struggling, they’re anxious, those kinds of things. We provide an environment, we’ve got Mass five times a day, a perpetual adoration chapel in every residence hall. So there’s a place where that part of them that they can be quiet and they can be still and be present to the Lord. And then through relationships, one of the things that we’ve established at Franciscan University is a system called households. And it’s small faith communities.

Dr. Peter: [00:17:17] I’ve heard of this, yeah.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:17:17] Yeah. So every residence hall has small faith communities. Statistics again show that the loneliest year of an individual’s life is the freshman year of college, because there’s so many decisions that are made. I mean, your mom and dad aren’t there asking when you’re getting up? Or are you going to church? What are you eating? Are you eating? You know, all of those kinds of things. So we’ve created this environment that the students have a care and a concern for one another, and ability to reach out to those around them. To honestly, we say at the very beginning, pay attention. You know, who around you, who’s the student eating by themselves? Go sit with them. Who’s the student you don’t ever see, that they’re in the room a lot? So this invitation to community, invitation to relationship. I think one of the greatest struggles we’re having in young people, and I don’t have to tell you, because you’re a psychologist, is relationship, right, is literally interaction with other human people. And the Covid has been profoundly difficult with that. We’re finding kids, just some of the basic things, honestly, that they’re coming in and they’re nervous about raising their hand in class. They’re nervous, some of these students hadn’t been in class in person for years, and they’re nervous that the professor, anxious about what if the professor calls on me? So to be able to create an environment that we can wrestle with these issues and help the person by bringing the human formation. Now part of that is, and I’ll have you on my podcast someday. But, you know, how do how do we deal with some of those things? You know, I think that we have an environment that the first place is, well, we need to send the student to counseling. I don’t know that that’s necessarily the first place to start, but it certainly has a great advantage and blessing for some people.

Dr. Peter: [00:18:45] Right. This idea of a felt sense of safety and protection, that is what Brown and Elliott, in their 2016 book Attachment Disturbances in Adults, identified as the first, they said that’s the first primary condition of secure attachment is to have a felt sense of safety and protection, and then a sense of feeling seen, heard, known and understood. And it sounds like those households are really designed to help that second primary condition of secure attachment, to feel seen, heard, known and understood. And then the third is to have this felt sense of reassurance, to be able to be soothed. They’re talking about stuff that goes way back. But Franciscan University is drawing from a broader culture that is becoming more and more detached from natural law, natural order. Like, there’s all kinds of disruptions happening even in families that are attempting to live the faith.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:19:38] You know, is it fair to say that things are more difficult than they were, you know, 50 years ago? I guess what I would say, the reason you say that is because you weren’t alive 50 years ago. But I would say that there are unique challenges that we have to deal with, that you and I didn’t have to deal with, you know, and it’s being intentional. One of the things that we started about two years ago was a program inviting the students to enter into a scholarship called Unplugged, and that was an invitation for students to get off a smartphone. And the thing that was really amazing about it is when we started this, it was, you know, you’d be a part of a scholarship. Last year, we stopped the scholarship part because we found that people wanted to be a part of this, regardless of whether or not, so we moved the scholarship into different areas, but we really do. People are coming here and you would be able to speak better than I, but the fruits of this were less anxiety. They actually thought that they were going to miss out more, but what they actually are experiencing and feeling is I don’t feel like I’m missing out. I don’t feel like there’s all of these things that I need to pay attention to, and I can actually pay attention in one sense, to myself, but then also to the people around me. And that’s been a great fruit of that.

Dr. Peter: [00:20:41] I was reading something about this. So this is like the fast from the phone from like eight at night till eight in the morning or something like that.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:20:47] No, totally. The kids give up their smartphone. They go to a dumb phone or a gab phone or whatever it’s called. They give up their smartphones.

Dr. Peter: [00:20:56] Beautiful, beautiful. Well, I was thinking about what you were saying in terms of the silence, right? And the opportunities for silence, the adoration chapels and the opportunity for perpetual adoration and so forth. I mean, it’s in the silence that this stuff starts to come up, right? In a different way. Sometimes it comes up anyway. It’ll come up in the noise, right? But that’s a healthy thing.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:21:16] No, that’s exactly what I was going to say. If it’s coming up in the silence and there’s this sense of beginning to see and know and understand, that’s beautiful. But if it’s coming up in the presence of addiction or slavery or some destructive behavior, we’d much rather it start in the chapel than there. But, you know, we have to deal with that. The fact that we’re dealing with 18-year-olds and you said beautifully, kids from really good families, but there’s still a lot of struggles that they’re going through. And I will say the difficulty and struggle with, I think any universities that are trying to take this seriously is just the ability to have enough, not just kids, but older people, adults, to really continue to pour into them. So we invite our faculty and staff actually to be a part of these households. So it’s not just young people, but the adults are in there and kind of working and helping them with some advising and that kind of thing. That’s really important. The other part of the personal vocation is assigning mentors and coaches and in all different kinds of areas and ways, but to make sure that it’s not… Going back to the number of young people that leave the church. There was a study that was done about the 25% of those that stick, you know. And one of the interesting statistics of that was that people that was able to see intergenerational ministry taking place, that they see somebody older than themselves, so they see a path forward. It’s like, oh, this could be me in ten years. I don’t want just this myopic group of 18 year olds. Nobody wants that, right? So that there’s other opportunities for them to get some help.

Dr. Peter: [00:22:47] That is something that’s really important. I went to Northwestern University and at Northwestern University I was in Chapin Hall, which was a residential college focused on the humanities. Hard to imagine a more sort of liberal, progressive place at Northwestern University. But we did have faculty that were associated with the college, and they would come and eat lunch with us and they would spend time with us. And it was interesting just to be able to connect with that and to think about how powerful that would be if it’s grounded in a Catholic anthropology, if it’s grounded in our understanding of the universe, you know, and to have those personal connections. It would be so wildly different than what I got.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:23:23] Yeah. And the other thing is, again, we want to try to be able to see that. Our students are going to be going to Mass and the professors behind them and over in the corner. And so all of these things, that we want to try to not silo this, right. It’s not just, okay, that’s the act, but this world that we come together in is a Catholic world.

Dr. Peter: [00:23:41] So we’re at the National Eucharistic Conference. And I’m really interested to see your thoughts about, with your students, with your faculty, with your staff. How do these four dimensions come together in the encounter with Christ in the Eucharist? Tell me about like, how does that happen and what are your thoughts about this? This may be new, I mean, maybe I’m stretching you a little bit, but yeah, I’m just really interested in that because, you know, Christ is our exemplar of how to be a human being.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:24:10] Yeah. I believe the Fourth Lateran Council says whatever it is to be human, Christ is that. So to the degree that I encounter Christ authentically, not my image of Christ, not who I want him to be, but in fact, who he is, which is a huge difference. You know, because we place our agendas, our brokenness on him and it needs to be that his grace and his perfection needs to be placed on us. And that’s transformation. So to the degree that we encounter that Christ in the Eucharist is this process of us beginning to be transformed and changed. With that being said, it’s interesting, the intellectual part. I mean, I have a couple degrees in theology, so I’ve studied a little bit about this. And it’s a value, right? It’s a value. But in some ways, an image that one of my professors used for me was it’s this coat rack that’s behind us that we can pull from and put on when we need to put on. But it’s not merely an intellectual experience. I can talk to you about the theology of transubstantiation and the theology of that, which is not insignificant. But then I’m also understand that in John 6, when Jesus says, “Unless you eat My Body and drink My Blood,” which is a remarkable statement, right? And people begin to walk away from him. And this is something I think important for us to reflect on, is that Jesus was willing to let people leave him and not follow him. You know, I’ve had people say to me, I can’t imagine Jesus would ask something so difficult of me. It’s like, why would you think that? I mean, take a look at the Gospels. Jesus has some really difficult, difficult things.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:25:37] But then what he says is, “For this the flesh is useless. What is needed is the spirit.” There’s a beautiful story that happened at the Congress this week, is one of the individuals that was working on the programming of all the technology that’s going on, with beautiful lights and the sound and all that kind of thing. Non-Catholic, he’s a minister in another, a non-denominational church. He said he watched what happened Wednesday night when they brought the Blessed Sacrament in. I don’t know if you’re able to be there. 40,000 people focused on Jesus and the Blessed Sacrament. And it was quiet. He said he left this event and called his wife. And he said, intellectually, he goes, “I don’t understand what just happened. But there was something that happened when that was brought in that I’ve never seen before.” And he said, “Something moved in my spirit,” right? He goes, “I don’t understand it, but that is what,” — and this is a group that’s very into worship — he said, “There was a worship there that I’ve never seen or experienced before, and maybe we’re missing something.” It’s really beautiful, right? It was really, really beautiful. So yeah, that’s my hope is here. And even in this, I hope this doesn’t rub people the wrong way, all right, so save me if we, do a re-edit if this is going to come out wrong. But even the Eucharistic adoration, unfortunately there’s a way that the devotion becomes the attention rather than Jesus. It’s the devotion is important, right, but it’s only important to the degree that I encounter Jesus in this and that that encounter brings about transformation in my own life. So the adoration, that we’re adoring Jesus in the monstrance, ought to connect me to the one who walked on the Sea of Galilee, the one who said things that challenged them. And if we’re never experiencing that, then we’re missing something, right? If we never walk out of our adoration just feeling good, but it’s like, my goodness, I need to change something in my life. We’re missing something.

Dr. Peter: [00:27:34] I mean, the word that comes to mind is pietism. It’s that somehow the prayers, the form becomes reified and becomes an idol.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:27:44] That I’m saved because I do this.

Dr. Peter: [00:27:47] Right, exactly. And what we’re talking about is an actual encounter. And this is Pope Benedict, you know, an encounter with a person. And going back to the first great commandment — to love the Lord thy God wholeheartedly. It means, like with all of our being, which is why this integration is so important, which is why I’m glad to hear that what you’re doing at Franciscan is bringing in these four dimensions in a deliberate way, like this idea of this households, which I had heard about, because my kids have friends that go to Franciscan and so forth, you know.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:28:16] But you don’t have kids at Franciscan.

Dr. Peter: [00:28:18] I do not have kids at Franciscan, yet.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:28:20] Yet, we’ve not given up.

Dr. Peter: [00:28:22] But we were also very careful about the colleges. My kids have gone to Wyoming Catholic College and to Christendom.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:28:31] Both good schools. You should take that seriously.

Dr. Peter: [00:28:36] Right. I’m really excited to hear about the vitality of this. I’ve kept an eye on Franciscan for the last 20 years, in part because there’s a counseling program there, and I’ve been there a couple of times. The society for Catholic Social Scientists met there some years ago, and it’s not actually all that far away from Indianapolis, which is where I live now. So this has been really a blessing. As we begin to land this, I’m curious about, like if there’s a message of hope for potential students or students and their parents. Like, what do you see as signs of hope that things can be different, that there’s reasons to have confidence in our Lord.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:29:14] Yeah, obviously the Holy Father has called a Year of Jubilee this year, and the title for the Jubilee is, “hope does not disappoint”. And that’s a pretty bold statement, right? Because I’ve met people that are disappointed. And I love, it’s obviously from Romans. And he says “hope does not disappoint because…” And it seems to me the entire world should stop. Hope does not disappoint because… Well, why doesn’t it? “Because the love of God has been poured forth into our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit.” And that’s why hope doesn’t disappoint. So the invitation I think that’s going on here, and the invitation we have for this Jubilee year is that. Is to allow the Lord to continue to pour forth his love by the power of His Holy Spirit in our heart. That’s why we can have hope. I think the reality is oftentimes we equate hope with a desire, a want, a wish, a dream, a prayer. That’s not what hope is. Hope is that God is who he says he is. Hope is that the church is a light to the nations. You know, it’s interesting, just you said, you know, where do we see hope? I mean, we see hope with 50,000 people here, but we also see hope with the student, I just met with a young kid this morning that’s starting a nonprofit organization to help young men deal with pornography addiction. And this is a 21 year old kid that had an experience of struggle. And then he experienced a freedom, and he wanted to bring it to other people. Hope is in a 22-year-old, a 21, 22-year-old kid who says, “I think other people could experience the same grace that I experienced from that.” So it’s all around us, if we allow our eyes and our lens to be changed, to be able to see it.

Dr. Peter: [00:30:46] So as we bring this in, as we land this, if people were to remember just one thing, if our audience was to remember just one thing, one sentence, one phrase, what would you want them to leave with? What would you want them to be able to hold onto from our time together, from this experience together?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:31:05] So I’m reminded of Saint Francis, who — have you been to Assisi?

Dr. Peter: [00:31:10] I have.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:31:11] Okay, beautiful little, wonderful, and Francis, and this was obviously 800 years ago, would want to get away from the craziness of the city. So he’d go up the mountain and there were caves there. And one particular day he was praying. And this image and what the Lord moved in his heart was, what we are before God is what we are, and nothing else. Francis was kind of an innate, it was a moment that he was really seeing his sin in a really personal, more profound way. And he heard the Lord say, what you are before God is what you are, and nothing else. And that’s not a condemnation. That’s actually a grace. A grace. So we are who we are in our brokenness and our messiness and our grace and our virtue. And the Lord delights in that and brings about transformation in that.

Dr. Peter: [00:31:54] Well, you bring in this theme of identity. Because this is so central in our world. We are forgetting who we are. And if we don’t see ourselves through the eyes of God, we’ve distorted who we are. And that is so common.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:32:08] Yeah. And that who we are though, and I’ll go back to your four integrative things, is that we’re not just flesh, but we’re flesh and we’re spirit and we’re experience and all of that. And that’s why just what we are, is we just stand before the Lord naked. And all of that comes together and that’s who we are.

Dr. Peter: [00:32:26] Well, that’s part of the reason why our whole outreach is called Souls and Hearts.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:32:30] Yeah, that’s beautiful.

Dr. Peter: [00:32:31] Because it’s not just the soul, right? There’s also the heart. And then we’re wanting to bring all of that in. So it has been such a pleasure to have you, to have you with us, and so grateful for your cooperation with the Holy Spirit, with the graces at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. If people want to find out more, where do they go?

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:32:51] franciscan.edu.

Dr. Peter: [00:32:52] franciscan.edu. You got in there early.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:32:55] Pretty simple, that’s right.

Dr. Peter: [00:32:57] franciscan.edu. Excellent. Well, thank you so much.

Fr. Dave Pivonka: [00:33:00] My pleasure to be with you, thank you so much.

Dr. Peter: [00:33:03] Thank you to Fr. Pivonka for sharing with us. It’s so good to have you on the podcast. Remember, please like and subscribe, especially that subscribing on YouTube, subscribe on YouTube and also subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts for the audio. The YouTube stuff really helps us with our reach. Subscriptions help us all the time and like us as well. Now just a word about the Resilient Catholics Community. It’s reopening for new applications on October 1st, 2024. As Fr. Pivonka and I discussed in this interview, so many spiritual problems are really spiritual consequences of human formation issues. So many faithful Catholics have sought out so many spiritual solutions to so many human formation problems. And it hasn’t worked. Why? Because natural human formation issues require natural approaches to human formation. We recognize this in the natural bodily realm. Most Catholics, if they’re in a car accident, if they’re bleeding profusely, they will seek medical care, care in the natural realm. They’ll call the EMTs. They get to the emergency room. They don’t limit their action to the spiritual realm. They just don’t go and pray the Rosary just by itself, or go to confession and Eucharistic adoration while they’re bleeding, right. But so many Catholics fail to recognize how much need they have for their own human formation, again in the natural realm, and that there are answers.

Dr. Peter: [00:34:25] So if you are a Catholic who recognizes the need for structure in your human formation, in your life, if you want a structured program in a community of like-minded Catholics in relationship with other Catholics in small groups journeying together toward the love of God wholeheartedly, learning to love our neighbors as ourselves, and if thinking in terms of parts and systems appeals to you, well, check out the Resilient Catholics Community. You can do an internet search, or you can go to our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. It’s not just about surviving. It’s not just about getting through the day or the week or the year. The RCC is about resiliency and flourishing. It’s about living with joy and peace and radiance. So get on the interest list for the next cohort. Go to soulsandhearts.com/rcc. Again, we’re accepting applications again starting on October 1st and find out more. My conversation hours, you can call me on the phone, on my cell phone, (317) 567-9594, every Tuesday and Thursday from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. Eastern time. I just pick up the phone. We have conversations. If it drops to voicemail, I’m talking with somebody else. Leave me a voicemail or send me a text. I will call you back.

Dr. Peter: [00:35:40] I also want to remind you of our free courses. Most of our resources, almost all of our resources at Souls and Hearts are free. There’s a Catholics Guide to Choosing a Therapist, there’s a Catholics Guide to Self-Help, and there’s a Catholics Guide to Helping a Loved One in Distress. These are all video courses, they’re substantial. Dr. Gerry and I put these together when we launched Souls and Hearts. And you can get them at our website, at soulsandhearts.com. And also, I’m going to invite you to pray for us and to pray for those who are going through writing their personal vision, mission, and vision statements. We’ve got more than 70 onboard now. You can still join us. Check it out at soulsandhearts.com/blog. Look for the reflections from July 22nd, August 12th, and August 26th, and also September 9th. And with that, we will bring this to a close by invoking our patroness and our patrons. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

Special thanks to the Human Formation Coalition, who provided the support to make this transcript available.