IIC 155: You Evangelizing You – “Internal Evangelization”

Dr. Peter: [00:00:00] Well, it is really good to be back with you. Dr. Peter Martin was here for episode 154. We are now on episode 155 of this Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, and I think we just get right into it. You have this concept that is really interesting to me because you bring in evangelization, right? So you have this IET, internal evangelization therapy. That’s the title of this podcast, episode 155, a pathway to allow God to become all in all. And so I think we just hit this. Again, this is all consistent with what our Interior Integration for Catholics podcast is all about, what Souls and Hearts is all about. It’s all about us embracing our identities as beloved little children, beloved little sons and daughters of God. I’m your host, Dr. Peter, Peter Malinoski. I am a clinical psychologist, a trauma therapist. I’m a writer. I’m a father and a husband — I want to put that in there, too. But what we’re talking about here is just so important in our apostolic outreach for Souls and Hearts, because it brings together these four dimensions of formation with extra focus on that first primary dimension, the basis of all formation, which is human formation. But you are bringing things together in your work as a clinical psychologist in Lincoln, Nebraska, Immaculate Heart of Mary Counseling Center, with internal evangelization therapy. I’m just curious, like, what is it, you know? Or you take it any way you want. You’ve got a way of explaining this.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:01:54] All right. Great introduction. Thank you. I appreciate that. And also, I want to appreciate your daughter, Lucy, for all the help she did to set up everything. And then John, your son, and Pam and her great cooking. So thanks so much to the Malinoskis.

Dr. Peter: [00:02:07] Yeah. So you’ve been able to stay with us and sort of a little background on this. You know, Peter, you and I go like way back, we were talking about in the last episode, ten, fifteen years, more than ten years. This is actually before our group of depth psychologists gets together. We get together a couple of times a year, and we’re about to have our annual gathering, our retreat. And, you know, I just cherish you as a brother in Christ and as a friend, like we’ve been friends for a long time. In fact, you and I, this is for our audience, right. You and I, Peter, we went on Level 1 IFS Training together before we really knew what IFS was.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:02:46] That’s right. I really like the training. It opened my mind and my heart in ways I don’t think I’ve ever quite could have imagined. And to have kind of a brother with me was great. I still remember, if you don’t mind saying it to the group. I remember you told me a story that you were working with parts and then you were exercising one morning. Do you remember this one? And so then you decided to mix it up a little bit, based on parts’ preferences. And so I didn’t know if you wanted to tell.

Dr. Peter: [00:03:16] Yeah, I was discovering a part of me that really wanted to play, you know. And so, yeah, just it was like a totally different experience. That was in the middle of the second week of our training, because back in those days they did them retreat style. So we were in Chicago for the first week, and then we went out to New Hampshire for the second week. And so it was in the middle of the second week of training when I really, for the first time, I think, in my life, really felt like I had a much, much greater degree of recollection, like much more unblended. And it was really freeing, I remember, yeah, just being able to play and to run and to run backwards, and not to run in a way that required me to keep track of times and continually improve. Very heavily managerial. And it was wonderful. I felt much more secure going back to some of our conversation about secure attachment from last week, much more secure going with you. In fact, we even decided we weren’t going to stay where they were hosting the first week. We were going to stay at Mundelein Seminary. We were going to drive and we stayed there the first night. And then we realized that the IFS training was at a Catholic retreat center, the Divine Word Missionaries, in Chicago. All four Eucharistic adoration chapels, and that was great. But there was also some, it wasn’t entirely Catholic. Yeah, the training brought in some elements that were not Catholic.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:04:37] Yes. Well, I remember because we would have those daily process groups. So it was kind of parts-based process groups. And I remember after a few days of being there, I realized that a lot of these people weren’t Christian. And, you know, they had come from all different walks of life and everything. And, you know, the lead trainer, I really liked the lead trainer, but she did kind of veer off the Christian path a bit, and I remember feeling a little nervous in the process group. So I decided just to kind of mention my nervous Catholic part. I had said to the group members, I said, “Well, I’m a little worried because I’m an orthodox, traditional, religious, you know, Catholic, and I have a part that’s kind of nervous about that in this group.” And then, all of a sudden, two people chimed in. One was a former Catholic, one was a practicing Catholic, and one was Jewish, practicing Jewish. And so it was just really cool to see like a wide range of people. And, you know, even though there were some things there at the training, obviously, that we would not endorse, I do think you can definitely baptize and confirm it, so to speak.

Dr. Peter: [00:05:36] Yeah, I think we want to really draw, and that’s what this podcast is all about. That’s what Souls and Hearts is all about. It’s about drawing from the best resources that are out there, which is very much the thought of St. Augustine. It’s very much the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, is to be able to mine the good wherever we find it. Otherwise, you know, we can just wind up trapped in a Catholic ghetto. And I’m fond of saying things like, we don’t reject the concept of DNA, the double helix, just because Watson and Crick, the discoverers of it, had some real anti-Catholic biases and were vociferous about those. You know, so we’re actually really about trying to take the best of what’s out there. And you’ve been doing some really beautiful work, some really great work with that, which is why I really want to get into this idea of internal evangelization therapy. Now, I’ve got to say, before we start that, when you originally gave me that term, I had parts that reacted to it. You know, and part of it was like, is therapy about evangelization? Should that be, as a therapist, rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. You know, operating under the licensing board, in my case, of the State Board of Psychology in Indiana. Like, what is this idea of evangelization? Because some people would think that these things should not intersect, or that it’s somehow crossing boundaries, like somehow therapy is becoming spiritual direction, you know? Or what about somebody who’s coming in and they’re not even Catholic? Are you still evangelizing them? Is there an agenda, you know, to this and so forth? So, you know, these are questions that — I don’t know if we want to lead with that. But, you know, but here I am sort of leading with it, so I don’t know.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:07:16] You want to start there, Peter? No, I’m happy to start here.

Dr. Peter: [00:07:22] But I mean, some other people listening to this podcast may have had similar reactions to it, right.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:07:26] And valid, by the way. Because that easily could go down the wrong trail if you do that.

Dr. Peter: [00:07:31] And I have seen that, I have seen that. I’ve seen Catholic therapists, and I think well-intentioned, but that are not really doing therapy. They’re doing something else. You know, catechesis or apologetics or something. And because they happen to be a therapist and because they happen to be in a therapeutic relationship with somebody and all those parameters, they think it’s therapy. But I wonder how therapeutic it really is.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:07:58] Yeah, I agree. I think so too. Those are valid points, we’ll try to address them later on. We’ll get into spiritual bypassing and some other things and how internal evangelization therapy might consider that. But I want to make a distinction. So the first thing is in many ways we’re evangelizing always. So the idea is that we’re living out the Gospel in the mode of our existence, the way we relate to God’s people, the way we relate to people that aren’t of faith. We’re constantly relating to them through our goodness and our love. We will know we are Christians by our love, kind of thing. But the idea is, you know, Saint Francis, it’s attributed to him, even though it’s probably not him, but it’s, “Preach the Gospel always, if necessary, use words,” kind of thing. So the idea is we’re living the Gospel. Now the question is, what does that mean for our work as therapists? And so I would say the distinction between proselytizing and evangelizing. So it’s never imposition. It could be a proposition, but not an imposition. And even best practice, if you read guys like Kenneth Pargament, who’s a real big name in the psychology of religion and spirituality. He would say it’s best practice, just like we would assess for cultural issues and kind of tailoring therapy to cultural preferences, definitely with religion and spirituality, you want to kind of tailor it to the person’s cultural religious preferences. So I think there’s plenty of evidence to show it’s a good idea to ask if they want to incorporate it, not impose it. But ultimately, if we’re guiding them on the pathway to greater holistic flourishing and functioning, there is an element of evangelization in that toward goodness, right? So I’m not saying the word “Jesus” every five words.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:09:37] That’s the misunderstanding of it. I don’t think that would be the case. Now, I will say briefly, in the literature on spirituality and religious accommodative treatments, the ones that bring about best mental health outcomes on par or equal to secular methods, and at the same time, increasing spiritual wellness, are the ones that were integrating it thoroughly throughout the whole process of treatment. So it’s not saying the word “Jesus” only once every ten sessions. It’s not like that. It’s actually incorporating the metaphors that people use in their spiritual faith tradition, having them do practices, religious practices. Like, if you think of how wonderful adoration can be for people and peaceful and calming and going to a spiritual director. All these things can be incorporated in a therapeutic environment, in a very healthy, non-imposing way and non-agendized way, I guess. A good question. Now, how did internal evangelization kind of kick off? You know, I was fascinated by the way that Dick Schwartz of course took family systems external and then internalized it. And then I remember reading in one of his chapters that the self is the internal attachment figure for the parts.

Dr. Peter: [00:10:49] He says that a lot. He says that IFS is attachment theory taken inside, and the self is the secure attachment figure for the parts.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:10:56] Exactly. And when I heard that it was off to the races because I love attachment theory, I think there’s a great wisdom for relationships, let’s say, our human relationships, but also our supernatural relationships. What if we take that model and the really well researched based kind of constructs that they have, and now turn it inside the way that Schwartz was describing. So that’s one way to do it, is with the self. The other way is, well, what about interiority? Not just introspection, which is my awareness and seeing within and getting to know kind of natural level psychological dynamics. But what about interiority with God, who resides within those who are baptized, in the state of grace. What about our intercessory prayers where these spiritual figures don’t necessarily kind of stay millions of miles away in the afterlife. You know, I’m just talking to some void or something. But actually there’s a real relationship that really impacts me, in my parts. And so I started to think, okay, well, if that’s the case, is it possible that there could be some evangelization done internally with the parts? And then, of course, some of the work that you’ve done with, like the internal heresies that these parts have, these distorted God images. And then, from that, I started to kind of look a little deeper into this thing called attachment security priming. There’s a meta analysis on it now, some really good research on the impact that we talked about it last meeting, so I won’t get into it.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:12:20] But the idea is that I can go from a high level of distress to a fairly calm place in a pretty quick time through attachment security priming. Turning to a person, an image, or a word or something that has a tendency to calm me, body and soul. So if that’s the case, if it does that to me as a person, what about parts? What about particular unique parts? So then comes 1 Corinthians 12. And so when you get into 1 Corinthians 12, you have this language of the parts of the body. In some translations, it literally is parts of the body of Christ. And we raise the lower parts up to higher levels. When one part suffers, all suffer. It’s just real fascinating language of what this healthy external family system looks like, as described. And at the end of 1 Corinthians 12, it says, “Let me show you a more excellent way.” So he’s talking about this. And what’s the next chapter? It’s verses we hear at every wedding you’ll ever go to, right. We had at our wedding, so I’m not opposed to it, but you hear it all the time — with good reason. It’s that faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. So how do we somehow get love into the internal system, not just through the self exclusively, but through other people, persons.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:13:36] And so that’s kind of where it came from. Now one of the things about that, so it is resting on the two great commandments and three great loves. So love God, love neighbor as yourself. And then those three loves, so God, self, and neighbor. And the idea is like, how does that look internally, now that we know it’s not just God in terms of God the Father, it’s also the Son, the Holy Spirit. It’s all the persons of the Trinity, it’s Mary, it’s all the saints and angels. And so how does that play a role? And the other piece of it, too, is if you look at the language of St. Thomas on this, it’s really interesting, this issue of how do you treat your neighbor? What does love look like at the highest level? What is the most virtuous way you can be with your neighbor? And he uses the language of mercy. That’s his language. And so I talked about these key spiritual figures that I had over my life. And this Dominican priest, Fr. Hennessy, when I was at Providence College, he said that, “The number one aspect of God’s love, the number one aspect of our relationship with God after the Fall, is His mercy.” No mercy, doesn’t matter. I mean, we basically don’t have it within us to make it to heaven.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:14:44] And so we’re not going there without God’s mercy. And so the idea is that Christ came to forgive our sins. And what else did he do? To show us mercy and to repair a relationship rupture. After the fall, Adam and Eve and the rest of us started to distrust God and distrust his goodness. And so my favorite quote from the Catechism, and I’ll just kind of cite it directly here. “God is the Father Almighty.” I know you start your podcast with beloved Father and you’re a child of his. “God is the Father Almighty. God reveals his fatherly omnipotence by the way he takes care of our needs by the filial adoption that he gives us, and finally, by his infinite mercy, for he displays his power,” — and I love this phrase — “at its height by freely forgiving sins, God the Father Almighty displays his omnipotence, his Almighty power at its height as Father by freely forgiving sins.” Okay. I’m smitten. So I love this language. Now, Dan Siegel, an attachment theorist, says, “The number one aspect,” — he’s a secular guy, he’s not a Christian, not a believer, to my knowledge — he says, “The number one focus of a parent in his relationship with a child is to repair a relationship rupture.” He’s directly kind of endorsing what God the Father is doing at his heights: to repair relationship rupture through forgiving of sins.

Dr. Peter: [00:16:10] Well, that’s what a sin is. A sin is a relationship rupture.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:16:13] Exactly. That’s definitely the consequence of the sin. When a person chooses evil, the consequence definitely is a rupture. And so that relationship has to be repaired. Now, going with internal evangelization. And so you got these notions of mercy. You’ve got these notions of repairing relationship rupture. So I oftentimes think if I were to use one example from Scripture to describe the role of the self when it comes to the parts, it’s basically the Good Samaritan. Now, it’s not identical to the Good Samaritan, but it’s basically the Good Samaritan. And basically, you know the story. A person was robbed on the side of the road. There were three people that walked in that direction. So one was a Levite and he walked by. Then there was a priest. He also walked by. And then there was this third person, a stranger, someone that really was not looked favorably upon in the Jewish tradition at that time. It was a Samaritan. He goes over there. And what does he do? He doesn’t say, “Peace out.” He doesn’t just walk by, he goes over and he takes care of him. He accompanies him. He brings out his oil and his wine. He pours it on the wounds. He takes care of him. He puts him on his beast, whatever it was, a donkey or something. Takes him to an inn. He’s not done yet, by the way. He’s still accompanying him. He pays for the inn.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:17:29] He spends the night with him. The next day, he gives money to the innkeeper, saying, “Take care of him. I’ll be back to check on him again.” It’s so interesting to me. That sounds very much like what the self should be doing to the parts. If we can think of the parts as kind of this poor, beaten up or kind of struggling part on the side of the road, and our role is to be the Good Samaritan. But here’s the kicker: the Good Samaritan was a stranger. In the internal system, the self is, I guess it could be a stranger, maybe an enemy to some of the parts, but ultimately it should be a friend. A really good caretaker, right? One other quick thing about this. Jesus, at the end, he says, “Which of these three? Which of these three — was it the priest, the Levite, or was it the Good Samaritan — proved the neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” And the guy said, “The one who showed mercy on him.” “Absolutely, go and do likewise.” I saw you have this on your shelf, the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. In the footnote on this passage, this is what Curtis Mitch and Scott Hahn say. They say in the Old Testament emphasis, “There’s an imitation of God’s holiness and we’re to be set apart.” That might be the reason why the Levite and the priest didn’t go up.

Dr. Peter: [00:18:40] Well, yeah, because if they became unclean, right, they’d have to be ritually purified. They might not be able to do the temple sacrifices. There were a lot of implications to approaching this guy.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:18:50] So we can’t just kind of shoo them off and say, oh, you don’t care about people. It’s not that. There’s lots of issues there. But in the New Testament they said, “We imitate God’s mercy.” Again, you see this language over and over again. Aquinas, the greatest of all virtues which relate to our neighbor, is mercy. Okay, so the idea, if you think of mercy, just kind of think of it on two levels. Number one, it’s there, it’s always present. But we can block it. We can stop it. We can kind of block that mercy through sin and through rejection and so forth. So it’s steadfast. We want that mercy to be steadfast. And it’s tender compassion. That’s the language of theology, the steadfast, tender compassion. So the idea is that if we can help clients to turn toward their parts in a disposition, not just an action, but a disposition of the self in a steadfast, tender, compassionate way, that’s very godlike. It’s the number one aspect of our relationship with God after the fall. That’s what love at the highest level is, to repair relationship rupture.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:19:56] It’s the strongest aspect of what he does as a father toward us. It’s also the number one virtue toward our neighbor. Well, what if these are internal neighbors? Just to use a metaphor, right. And we’re turning toward them in a steadfast, tender way. Now, the idea then would be, that’s one of the eight C’s, is compassion, right? There’s connection. There’s compassion. I’m assuming there was a calmness to the Good Samaritan that came with it. Courage. It took some courage. This is a road, this is a pathway where you would get beaten up and robbed. I mean, so it took some courage. Not to mention he was a Samaritan. But the idea is, that if we could do that consistently, regularly with our parts, now, what you have is you have that God can be all in all with all of our parts. He can connect with us through the self in the steadfast, tender compassion way. That’s the disposition. So the idea would be the self can be a lifelong, loving internal attachment figure for the parts. Very Catholic, very Christian in that.

Dr. Peter: [00:20:59] So again, going back to what we were talking about in the last episode, there is more than just the exercise of benevolence through the will here. This goes beyond one faculty. You know, in terms of loving the other person, because the will is a faculty. It’s a faculty of the soul, right? But you’re saying, like, when you start bringing in compassion, it’s more than just the exercise of that one faculty.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:21:26] I’m glad you said that. So that’s really important, right? Remember when we talked about most times Catholics, when they think of love, obviously the high one is to love your neighbor as yourself. But that means to will the good of the other, ideally the highest good. So the highest good is a supernatural good. So if my job is to will the highest good of my neighbor, my internal neighbor, and the highest good is a supernatural good, how do we get that to the supernatural level is the question, right? How do we get that to the full flourishing? And the other thing is, imagine the Good Samaritan going by this guy. He has disgust and contempt in his heart towards this person he’s taking care of, but he takes care of him, right? He’s willing his way through that, white knuckling it. He’s going through it, all that stuff. That’s different than saying he had compassion on him. He suffered with him. There was a resonance in him. Do you remember when Dr. Flood had mentioned to us, he calls it omni-subjectivity. So it’s not just that God is omnipotent and omnipresent and that kind of thing. He said that if God is really God, then he has this omni-subjectivity about him, which means he knows our feelings in the moment when we feel them. He knows it better than we do and so forth. And God is a compassionate God. So there’s this resonance there. He suffers with, right. So if we’re compassionate toward our parts, that’s also a very godlike thing in many ways.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:22:54] So the idea then would be, let’s insert attachment theory here. So we talked about the self as this internal attachment figure. According to Schwartz, it’s this unfallen supremely secure attachment figure. We would not say totally unfallen, but nonetheless there’s some interesting things there. But imagine that circle of security. We’re attending to the needs of a child. In this case, the self is attending to the needs of the part. The way I conceptualize it is this: when a part blends, I conceptualize that as it’s the self needing to be the safe haven. So remember, why does a part blend usually? Think of a blended part. It’s usually high distress, possibly it’s in survival mode. What happens when a child gets nervous? The idea is in attachment theory is its attachment system activates. And instinctively it tries to find some kind of an attachment figure to help. So now the thing is, some children are very activated, but they’re very critical toward their parents, harsh and critical, and you’re not doing a good job. Some children just seem like they feel helpless and they’re stuck. Some children maybe are doing something else behaviorally to either fight or flight or something like that. But the idea is that if we can think of it as just like the metaphor of the Good Samaritan, there’s this poor part on the side of the road that needs our oil and our wine, needs our accompaniment, the self’s accompaniment, from an attachment standpoint, and the circle of security. They need that internal attachment figure, self, as a safe haven to calm them down. And it needs those five primary conditions of secure attachment to really boost their security, to help them to unblend, and even to unburden at some point. And then the idea is that now, if they are transformed fully, now they’re the best version of themselves. It’s not like the self says, catch you later afterwards. Like the self is still an intimate part in that relationship, and it accompanies those parts wherever they go. In other words, it leads them as a secure attachment figure, like a good parent would, in many ways, developmentally specific. So the idea then is that it’s not just the self, then it could also be the spiritual intercessor, that could help. The bridge.

Dr. Peter: [00:25:16] Yeah. I mean, I am all about that because I do believe that in order to reach us, God doesn’t want to work part by part. He doesn’t want to, like, just ignore the innermost self, you know, and just go directly to the parts. Because that could be violating, right? There could be all kinds of reactions and tensions around that. So you’re grabbing on to this idea of the innermost self as mediator.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:25:38] Exactly. God respects our freedom more than we do. He’s not going to force himself on a part. Imagine you take your child to, you know, to get some shots or something, and the doctor comes over and doesn’t talk to the parent and just kind of starts injecting something or pulling blood out or something. Like the parent’s going to probably say, hold on a sec. Let’s talk. They’re going to be the mediator. Let’s get things rolling. So similarly, God’s not going to force himself upon us or the parts. And so the idea within IFS, it provides some examples, like the self can now be the mediator and so forth between God and the parts. So the idea is that the self remains with the parts. Kind of like Jesus sent the Spirit after he was ascended into heaven. And so there’s this kind of beautiful kind of flow of circle of security that goes with that. Now, the way it works is something like this. So for people that are listening, I’m pulling up the circle of security picture and it has like the child going away, but they still want the parent to watch over them and delight in them and all that kind of stuff. But then when they get distressed, they’re returning to the parents to help them feel protected, feel comforted, that kind of thing. Okay, now we could do the same thing with God. Imagine someone who is scared of Jesus. What are they going to do to cope? They’re going to be going away. They’re going to be Jesus-phobic in some ways, possibly. But then there’s also people that bypass too much, spiritual bypass.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:27:04] And what they do, it can feel a little bit like what a preoccupied or an anxious ambivalent child would do. I’m not going to work on my stuff. I’m too nervous. Jesus, take the wheel. I can’t handle it. So what they’re going to do is they’re going to go toward Jesus so much so that they never do the “exploratory behavior,” to be more autonomous, let’s say. Still connected to Jesus and so forth. It’s not a collaborative effort, let’s say. It’s very much, you take care of it, I can’t handle it. And so, as a consequence, we want to really help parts to not only attach to self, but also to attach to their spiritual intercessor. As a parent, you talked about the main goal, the end game, is to help them to become a saint, to be with God in heaven. That’s the end game. We think about that in advance, and then we go backwards and we think about what’s going on here. And so the idea is like, how do I help my child? The way I can help them the most is not just for me to be a good attachment figure to them. It’s for me to be a conduit to the higher level stuff, to the supernatural, regularly so, by my witness, but also by my suggestions and things like that. So the idea would be, the spiritual intercessors now, they intercede not only for the parts. This is where probably Schwartz might go a different way, I don’t know. But they intercede, not just for the parts.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:28:27] Let’s just take Jesus, for instance, if the self is the mediator. So Jesus is the mediator between God and man, and the self is the mediator between, let’s say, Jesus and the parts. And so the idea is that the self also needs to be resourced, also needs Jesus. The parts need Jesus. So the idea is you could resource the self and the parts. And when I do work with clients on this, and let’s say they have a real close relationship with Our Lady of Czestochowa, the Black Madonna, for instance. Had a client, really strong devotion to her. When she is unblended and she’s in self, it’s good. And she feels like the calm and the peace. But then when she invokes Our Lady to be with her, when she’s in self, she says it takes it to a whole different level. And I don’t doubt that. I don’t doubt that one bit. So it can take this kind of stuff to a whole different level. And so the idea would be we’re trying to kind of help them at the highest level, the highest good and so forth. So there’s an example I had, this particular person happened to have fibromyalgia, and real difficult case of fibromyalgia. And she had to quit her job actually because it was so severe. And so what happened is we interpreted the fibromyalgia as a part. And it was communicating to her some strong messages, let’s say.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:29:47] So then I worked with her and she focused on that part. And then I asked her if she wanted to invoke Our Lady of Czestochowa because she had such a strong devotion to her. And she said, sure. So she did. It was nearing the end of session. And so I’m like, oh, I don’t know if we have time. So she did it for a few minutes and then at the end of it, I asked her kind of sheepishly, how did it go? I didn’t know if it was going to go well, I had some inclinations it’d be fine. But she said, “I sit here before you and I tell you I feel no pain.” It literally had taken away her fibromyalgia, not permanently, but just in that moment, in that state. It had taken her fibromyalgia away. Now, what happened is, I was pretty excited about that. And then afterwards she went home, came back the next session, I asked her how it went and did it last. And she said, “Yeah, it lasted a few more hours. But then I went home to my husband.” So there were certain life situations that complicated it, but we did it again. She was able to reduce the pain and everything. So the intercessor can be a powerful means because parts — a lot of times, not always, I don’t know what the percentage is — trust the intercessors more than the self, you know. So she had a lot of powerful protector parts and they didn’t trust the self and they liked to dominate, but they seem to all really be okay with Our Lady.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:31:01] Now, the question would be, and I know what’s coming up in your mind, probably. But what about those parts that don’t trust her, right? What about them? So let’s get into that a bit here. Because the idea is, remember how we talked about propose, not impose. So you can suggest. I had an inclination, she didn’t fill out the LASSR forms and all that stuff, so I didn’t have that kind of metric. But I had a sense that she trusted her because she would continuously go to her. And I asked her about her spiritual life, and it didn’t seem like there were any challenges. And she had peace afterwards. That was the other thing. If there’s one variable I want to seek, it’s like, does it feel like you were at peace after your kind of relationship? Or does it feel like you’re just constantly nervous? And then the other thing is you can check with these parts right before, just say, see if — let’s say it’s an exile — see if the exile would like to, you know, have Jesus around. And so let’s say the exile says yes. Check with other parts, see if there’s any other parts that might be hesitant to allow Jesus to meet with this exile. Because their job is to exile. It’s like burying them alive is kind of what they’re doing with the exile, right?

Dr. Peter: [00:32:01] Because this idea could be, it’s life and death, right? Like, we cannot have this exile interact with Jesus or we will be lost. Like it will be terrible.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:32:10] Exactly. And there are people that I’ve worked with that don’t want anything to do with a spiritual intercessor and their parts. I’m thinking of a person that has a part that was an anti-God part. Literally, that was the name, even though she was Catholic, went to Mass, all that stuff, all that jazz. But for her, anti-God wanted nothing to do with God, or I might add, any of the other parts or any other persons. It wanted to have, like a barbed wire around with a giant fence and no one can get in. But when you ask that part, is it okay with this particular part to have Jesus invited? It’s okay, just keep them away from me. That’s the idea. So you respect the wisdom or you respect the concerns of the parts and you roll with it. And usually I find the benefits outweigh the negatives, if you go with that kind of awareness of the parts and the system. So ask the part, don’t impose. You can propose. See if there’s any other parts that might be opposed to this. Even then, if you might have an intuition that there might be opposition, check with this part. And if once that’s okay, then you can invoke.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:33:14] So the self invokes the spiritual intercessor, invites the spiritual intercessor, and introduces the spiritual intercessor to the part. And then at that point, the self can even communicate to the part why it appreciates this spiritual person. And that way, kind of like you do with your child. This is my friend Peter. Yeah, we hung out, we’ve known each other for 15 years, he’s got so many kids. But the idea is you’re kind of just taking that lead role in this intercessory kind of experience. So then the idea is that there’s this ongoing accompaniment and this is the key. It’s really good for exiles to know that they can always turn to this person because, as I mentioned before, 95% of exiles, at least the ones I’ve worked with, are interested in having that spiritual intercessor. Some of them are utterly interested. Now people might say, but isn’t that a spiritual bypass? You haven’t gone to the exile, unburdened the exile, that whole process. And I would say Rome was not built in a day. But I like the idea that this exile has someone to accompany it, because the self doesn’t have the cognitive capacities to do that fully on a regular basis, sometimes.

Dr. Peter: [00:34:20] Because it’s too blended?

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:34:22] Could be too blended or just life happens, right? You get up in the morning, you’re busy getting ready for work, and you don’t have time to kind of interact, you know. And so the idea is like, this is a spiritual person that could be there always and to be with them. So I like that idea. It’s not like I’m dropping the kid off at the babysitter’s, but that would be the closest metaphor, maybe. Even though it’s a terrible one, it’s a very limping analogy. So the idea then is that when you go back to reprocess memories from an internal evangelization therapy, it’s not just the self that goes to assist the part. It’s the self who’s accompanied by the spiritual intercessor or intercessors, and they intervene in a way that the part is okay with. And by the way, parts don’t trust all the time, for whatever reason. Imagine someone that’s had a part that’s been neglected and abandoned and mistreated. They don’t fully trust the self yet, but the idea is that they might trust this supernatural being in a way that they don’t trust the self. So you’ve got both-and, by the way. And that’s the idea is that you can bring in the more the merrier. But the other thing is they can help any of the parts. They can intercede for the self, because I’m not 100% certain that the self has all the answers.

Dr. Peter: [00:35:38] Yeah, I think there are limitations to the self as well, because of our finiteness. I also believe that some of the answers or some of the solutions, if you want to put it that way, reside in some of the other parts. Like it’s not just, you know, the innermost self unblends, all the parts are in the parts daycare, and now the person can function well. It’s sort of like, if that was the case for an orchestra, if all the musicians were like sequestered, and none of them were tackling the conductor, there still wouldn’t be any music, right? Because we need those parts included more and more if we’re going to live more fully. So, yeah, I think that there is something that is more than merely additive when parts come online and are integrated and are working in harmony together. Just like the sum of the music of an orchestra. You can’t just add up the individual pieces. There’s something holistic about it.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:36:37] Absolutely. I like that too. And I think from an attachment standpoint, the idea is that formation of priests, let’s just stick with that. Formation of priests is never an individualistic effort, even though it is really their job to work on it, primarily. It’s still, they’re doing it with these close relationships with formators. That is so important. And so the key would be, what if they had an additional formator they could turn to? A spiritual intercessor. And the idea would be that can really augment the whole process. I find that whenever you invoke a spiritual intercessor, invite to be in the system, parts work just goes better, in general. Now, there are times.

Dr. Peter: [00:37:18] Yeah, I mean, if the timing is right. Again, it goes back to that question of timing, right?

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:37:21] That’s the key. Now here’s the kicker. The timing could be a lot of times. And so I’d like to have a discussion, because this is where I think it could get kind of intriguing. One thing, I went to a conference, a one-day conference. It was two Fridays ago, but it was a specialist. I think she’s certified in IFS, maybe Level 2 trained, also EMDR certified, and she worked at Vandercolk’s Clinic in Boston. So she had this really interesting idea. She just kind of went through like the parts protocol, and she used the language of retrieval. And this is what she said. Because retrieval is more of an issue of place than person. So I’m referring to person as augmenting, increasing self-energy. Retrieval helps by utilization of space and place to increase self-energy. She said you could do retrieval, and this is what she says. You do it based on parts’ needs, before the witnessing stage. You can retrieve after the witnessing stage. You can retrieve before the unburdening step. Or I think she said, even after the unburdening. But the idea is, that place plays a huge role in how safe that part feels to continue with the process of IFS. So let’s use that kind of template. You could say the same thing for the person. So we talked about how the retrieval could be at any of those steps, any of those places.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:38:42] And I think whatever you’re doing, just like whatever we do, Christ and grace augments what we do and who we are. Similarly, it could be the same for the parts work, so it doesn’t have to be a spiritual bypass if you do it a certain way, because the theory would be you’re inviting in more self-energy. So that’s the language of IFS. Through the intercession of a saint, for instance. More self-energy in the system allows for better following through of the IFS steps and better parts work. But if they’re doing it to escape parts work, or if they’re doing it to escape, you know, kind of introspection, then it could easily be a spiritual bypass. But my sense is, this is IFS language, just like retrieval at different times can increase self-energy, so can intercession increase self-energy. Now one of the things I find and I’d be interested in your thoughts. Managers tend toward dismissing attachment. That’s the way I see them. They tend to be very independent. They tend to be very “left brain-ish”. And so they tend to be kind of, I’m doing my thing, right. They also tend toward what — Dan Siegel has this great line. He says, “The river of secure integration flows between the banks of rigidity and chaos.” It’s a great line. They’re the rigidity.

Dr. Peter: [00:40:09] Okay. This is interesting, right. So this is interpersonal neurobiology, talks about two manifestations of poor adaptation. One is rigidity. The other is chaos. So you’re saying managers are on the rigidity side.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:40:22] I think managers tend to be the authoritarian parents of the system. They try to be the authoritarian parents. So they’re the rigidity piece of it. It has to be this way. I’m going to set a template up so the emotions don’t get too intense, that kind of thing. Now what happens with firefighters is once it gets chaotic and that rigid system is not working too well, internally. So the firefighters — the metaphor of kind of like the teenage babysitter that’s flipping out. Eat whatever you want. Here’s the candy. I’ll let you go on a pony ride. Just stop crying. You know, that kind of thing. So they’ll do whatever it takes to put out the chaotic flames. Now the exiles. So they would tend more toward disorganized attachment. If people are dominated by firefighters, usually you’ll see closer towards disorganized. Not always, but you’ll see, if they’re in the disorganized attachment range, that’s probably more firefighter dominant in some ways. Now with exiles — again, these are generalizations — now with exiles, they tend to be more preoccupied. They want that kind of connection and clinginess, most cases. There are some exceptions.

Dr. Peter: [00:41:23] That anxious attachment — I don’t know if it’s going to work.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:41:28] I’m so dependent, I can’t do it on my own, and that kind of thing. And so, that’s why I think they’re usually much more open to like an intercessory figure than, let’s say, a manager. Managers got it. They’re good. I’m going to follow the pathway. And so they’re the most open to resourcing, I have found — the exiles.

Dr. Peter: [00:41:46] That makes that makes a lot of sense to me. The difficulty can always be with, again the concerns about the access. But sometimes the managers will be okay with Saint Joseph. They’re not okay with God having any relationship with this given part. But Saint Joseph, okay. He could do that. He’s not God, right? So he doesn’t have the power to condemn us. Maybe some good will come from it. You know, that’s sort of how managers can think, right. That’s really interesting. I tend to see the disorganized attachment being more — I actually think that no individual part has disorganized attachment. I think when you see disorganized attachment, what you’re seeing is different parts blending and dominating with varying attachment styles. So I actually think that the parts have on their own, when they’re not in right relationship with the innermost self, I think they have pretty stable attachment styles. But the switching of parts or the succession of parts who are in control makes that attachment look disorganized if you’re assuming a consistent, homogeneous personality. Does that make sense? But firefighters are — the question of, do they have a disorganized attachment? I have to think about that more, because I’ve never heard that before. That’s really interesting for me to think about. So I appreciate that.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:43:01] No, I like the distinctions you’re making there. Yeah, because this is not fully fleshed out.

Dr. Peter: [00:43:06] You are listening to cutting edge, like we’re thinking it out right here.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:43:12] Cutting edge and not so good, I might add. But I do feel confident with the managers and rigidity. That seems to fit. That seems to speak the most. The chaos part, with the firefighters. Managers despise chaos, utterly despise it, more than probably any of the other parts. Now, the question would be — it goes back to, I know you and I have had a discussion about attachment. And is this a general kind of attachment inside, or is it just kind of like an insecure part that’s attaching or two parts attaching kind of in a disorganized back and forth or simultaneous way. I think there’s lots of openness to discussion on that, but very good one. I know there are some in IFS that really believe autism is something that’s just a general style inside. You’ll see just kind of autistic features among different parts. And, you know, that kind of soaks in or permeates, that kind of thing. But, at any rate, the idea is that, going back to the self as a safe haven. So when a manager gets rigid and critical, the idea is hopefully the self will just say, he needs my help. You know, rather than a part jumping in and saying, I hate you or whatever, you always do this to us. 

Dr. Peter: [00:44:19] You always do this to us, you ride us.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:44:23] Exactly. And so for people that are listening, this might be what it looks like. IFS managers — again, this is the dismissing — but basically the idea would be, they’re more likely to go out and be independent, right? So I’m going to act like I’m good even though I’m distressed, but they’re going to go out and be very independent, and not enough return to the safe haven.

Dr. Peter: [00:44:46] Because they don’t trust that that’s for real.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:44:48] They don’t trust it. In fact, they basically are kind of taking over because of that.

Dr. Peter: [00:44:54] I gotta do it by myself. 

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:44:55] That’s right. Sometimes they’ll even lead you to believe that they are the self. Self-like manager parts and stuff like that.

Dr. Peter: [00:45:02] I’m reminded of a quote that my maternal grandfather used to say a lot, is God helps those who help themselves. So it’s like, all right, I got to figure it out on my own. So managers are very bound up into that. And so, on this image, on this slide that you’ve got, the circle of limited security, the whole cycle is short-circuited. They’re only operating in one zone of this.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:45:23] That’s right. And hence it’s not integrated. The interior is not integrated, to your point. But again, the key is they’re very good at looking healthy and independent. But inside that’s not the case. They’re not healthy and independent. Now, exiles. Now, what happens with them, they tend to kind of want to go toward the safe haven a lot. Like that’s kind of the key. They’re in distress, they’re wounded, why wouldn’t they? That, by definition, is what happens with attachment, is it gets activated, and they’re the activators, so to speak. So they drive the system, as Schwartz would say. They’re the ones that drive the system. And then the protector parts are responding. 

Dr. Peter: [00:46:04] Proactive for the managers, reactive for the firefighters. Because why? They’re afraid of the intensity of the burdens that those exiles are carrying. 

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:46:14] For them, to your point, it’s life or death. Like this is survival. It has to be this way. And that’s why it’s so tunnel-visioned in the way they do their work.

Dr. Peter: [00:46:22] And that leaves more openness to chaos because they’re in touch with the desperation of the situation. So if the house burns down, that’s okay as long as we’re not in it. You know, but the managers are thinking, where are we going to live? 

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:46:38] I like the metaphor. That’s good. And then the firefighters. Now, this may not fit. I’m still kind of working with this. See, this is the language of circle of security. And for people that can’t see this, there’s no hands. Notice the hands are missing. At least with those, they call those the organized versions of attachment patterns. This is the disorganized. So there’s three organized. There’s secure, insecure, preoccupied. And insecure dismissing or avoidant. And then there’s one disorganized. And it’s so disorganized because what they found — I wonder how this would work with parts, just kind of shooting from the hip. But basically when they were studying these children, aged 18 months or so, in the strange situation, some of the ones that had kind of this type of attachment, they would stare off at the ceiling. They’re dissociating probably. Some of them would kind of go towards the parent and then stop and then turn away and then come back and turn and then go back. And the idea is that they’re in this biological paradox. They’re designed to go to this person when they’re distressed. But this person is the source of fear and threat. And so they have nowhere to go. So here the hands are missing. I need you, but you’re so frightening that I have no one to turn to, and I don’t know what to do. They’re just spinning, basically. Now, firefighters, they kind of know what to do. This is why it may not fit.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:47:57] They know they want to escape. But if anything, it would be like the trapped experience. It’s the, I can’t and I’m stuck kind of thing. Now, one thing about internal evangelization and so forth. We had talked about how place and space play a big role, as do persons, like interceding. One of the things that I have seen is that you’ll see proximity and “degree of physical,” and I put that in quotes, is very important here. So you’ll have some parts, especially like exiles. They love to be held like infants. So go to the Lord as a child or as an infant. And they’re totally dependent on the Lord, or, in this case, let’s say Jesus. Totally kind of just sinking into him, you know, that kind of thing. And so they love that. That’s what they want. Other parts, not so much. And this again, this goes back to, if you’re asking an intercessor to kind of help out a manager and you’re like, okay, I can do it. And then, let’s say some part has an agenda, and it wants the intercessor to go over and just bear hug the manager, right.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:48:59] Well, no, that’s not going to work. The manager is going to kind of stiffen up and the quills are going to go out. But maybe the manager doesn’t want touch, because remember, dismissing is less open to physical touch, a lot of times. So maybe it doesn’t want touch, but it would be open to kind of moving a little closer. Or maybe it’s open to hand on the shoulder, whatever the case. But the key is, it’s not like we’re making this up with the intercessor. We have the part, or the self, ask the spiritual intercessor, not force, not impose, not try to conjure up a response, but just say, can I move closer to you? Is that okay? And then see what happens. So you can have this relationship with them where you ask questions, you ask for help in a certain way, and they might respond and they might not, is the key. But the idea is you’re not going to try to force or conjure up some unreality here that’s not taking place. Others simply don’t want an intercessor. And that’s okay too. Perfectly fine.

Dr. Peter: [00:50:01] Well, let me ask a couple of questions that come up a lot with this. So some models of therapy, you know, IPF, the idealized parent figure, they think we’re just working in the realm of imagination. This is just something we’re creating in our own minds. So from an IPF perspective, Brown and Elliott, they would say, yeah, these are just mental constructs. You know, this isn’t really — it’s a perceived attachment relationship. So that’s one question I have. Are these for real? Like do you believe when we’re doing this work that we’re actually entering into relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary or with God the Father or with St. Joseph or a guardian angel? Are we really thinking that we’re just imagining these things?

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:50:47] Right. Good question. It is true. Yeah, so for instance, ideal parent figure — and this goes with DNMS, the developmental needs meeting strategy. Yeah, you can have Mr. Rogers show up or something or some person in a memory or in a book that doesn’t really exist.

Dr. Peter: [00:51:02] So yeah, some character from a Dickens novel or something, right.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:51:05] Right, exactly. And the paradox here is that they seem to work. This is the paradox, right? So this is the attachment security priming stuff, and that seems to help. They’re using this kind of stuff in Russia, where some research on attachment is that less than 10% are securely attached. I mean, it’s a very low percentage that are secure. So the question was, do I think it’s real? Absolutely. So for instance, if someone is praying to Mary for her intercession, do I feel like that’s a real prayer to a real person? That’s a real connection, a real communication? Yes, I do. I do believe that’s a real person, real connection.

Dr. Peter: [00:51:39] If they’re praying to grandma who’s passed on. And we’re presuming that grandma was not canonized, right? I mean, it starts to be a question of discernment of spirits here, right? And again, that was one of the reactions I had initially to internal evangelization therapy and so forth. Like, are we qualified to get to the level of discernment of spirits so that we’re not being led astray by either some other part of us that’s maybe playing a role. You know, wants to step up and sort of take over this, but be really tricky about it. Or other distortions or something demonic, you know.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:52:16] It’s a good question. So two parameters I usually put on here. I don’t know, is that two parameters, but anyway. Some parameters I put on there, two things. First one: is it in accord with Catholic teaching? So the thing that this intercessor is doing or suggesting or whatever, is that in accord with the Catholic teaching? So if it’s not, you probably aren’t talking to Mary. It could be someone that looks like Mary, walks and talks like Mary, but it could be some dark force, or it could be something else. It could just be a burden. Like a burdened part that’s saying such and such. Because you’ll have people, they think it’s Jesus, but actually — maybe it is Jesus — but their burdened part is distorting the way that they’re receiving Jesus. And so it’s harsh, critical, that kind of thing. The other thing I usually check in on is — I like the peace litmus. So is this bringing peace? Is it drawing you towards peace? Generally speaking, like in the Ignatian discernment of spirits, that’s an important discernment issue, is the consolation that comes from it. The other thing is, does Jesus or someone who’s in the supernatural, transcendent life, let’s say in heaven, do they seem like they have the eight C’s, or do they seem blended? If they seem blended, it’s probably not someone in heaven. But just like we would do with ourselves, like if I can experience, you know, multiple of the eight C’s and I feel peace with it, probably more in self at that point. Now when it comes to an intercessor, if there’s any hint that they don’t have the eight C’s, let’s say, I would proceed with caution.

Dr. Peter: [00:53:50] So do you kind of check that out? Like as far as what is Jesus saying now, kind of thing. So from a therapeutic standpoint, you’re monitoring this, right?

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:53:59] Exactly. I’m getting feedback from them in their encounter. I’m asking them. So let’s say there’s some quiet. They’re spending some time with Mary or something and they’re not saying anything, so I’ll check in. How’s it going? What’s Mary doing? Is she saying anything or what’s going on? Just kind of checking. Again, I’m not telling them what Mary is saying and what Mary is doing. I’m asking them what’s happening in their encounter. And if they’re saying, well, Mary is kind of pointing her finger at me and saying, you’re doing a terrible job. You never should have done that. You’re a bad person. I’m like, okay, well, let’s check and see if there’s a part that showed up that’s kind of distorting that. So I’ll check with that. And I kind of accompany them in that process because that could easily happen. Most cases though, what I find is, if they already have a relationship that’s kind of a peacemaking relationship with a spiritual intercessor, that stuff doesn’t usually happen. Usually that intercessor comes across as in self, very in self.

Dr. Peter: [00:54:53] That’s been my experience too. I tend to get more concerned when it’s figures that I don’t know where they are, like, you know, a complicated relationship with grandma who died. I wonder about it. And a lot of like the EMDR literature, there’s no hesitation. You just go with the figure, whoever it is. Even if it is a fictional figure, you just go with it. And like Parnell, for example, — I mean, she’s got a whole example with the Virgin Mary. Not because she’s Catholic or anything. I don’t think she is, but that’s because it was relevant to the person. But we are actually bringing in, because we don’t believe that these are just representations of perceived attachment figures and blah, blah, blah. We’ve got an additional sort of responsibility to try to help with the discernment aspects of this.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:55:40] I’m glad you bring that up. Yeah, because one of the things that I think is important is I try to be kind of aware of how much we project onto people that are in heaven. For instance, like in terms of the way that we think of what in self feels like. I just feel like there’s a major qualitative difference between us and those who are in grace in the beatific vision. So one of the things, when I do work with an ideal parent figure with parts, I will ask the clients, for instance, what are the five adjectives in your experience as a child growing up with your parents? Let’s say dad was distant and critical. Mom was, you know, extremely nervous, whatever they say. And I’ll say, so we’re looking for someone who’s a positive opposite. And by the way, if you’re in heaven, you’re already a positive opposite of that. You just are. You’re in grace. You’re in mercy at that point. You’re in the highest level of positive, like heaven. You’re in heaven. And so the idea is like, it’s not just that the person’s calm. Let’s say, Mary. It’s like she’s beatifically calm, like it’s a whole other level of calm, because otherwise if she’s just calm like our neighbor is, or like that nice lady down the street or grandma, then I think we’re basically distorting what beatific calm is. So I want them to be kind of preparing their heart for that. This is someone that’s supernatural. This is transcendent kind of calm. So just to kind of prepare their heart for that. But I do think to your point, like it has to follow Catholic teaching. And secondly, like they’re in self, they’ve got the eight C’s, in spades, let’s say. 

Dr. Peter: [00:57:16] If you’ve got a client that’s dealing with some guilt about an objectively morally wrong action, an immoral thing. And there is some chastising or there is some correcting or whatever going on that is landing hard with parts. And it’s painful. Because I think one of the criticisms of this could be, well, it just sounds like God’s not a father. He’s like an indulgent grandfather. And, you know, you put the mercy thing on and, you know, it’s all good and there isn’t any accountability. And how Catholic is that? And if you look at the example of our Lord, you know, like cleansing of the temple, you know, berating Pharisees, upbraiding his own disciples, you know, there’s plenty of times where somebody could look at that and say, well, that doesn’t look like he was in self. Doesn’t look like what you’re describing in these intercessor figures.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:58:08] I think, as a rule, you’re going to see more very explicit manifestations of being in self with people in the beatific vision. I mean, I just think you’re going to see that. Now, Jesus, when he’s, you know, turning over tables and in the temple area and and so forth, it’s the right thing to do for him at that time. And parents still do that too, by the way. Parents will get angry at times and so forth. But the idea would be truth and love. Like, we never want to separate compassion from truth, because then truth becomes kind of a caricature of itself. Or I should say, compassion becomes a caricature of itself, right? I like Pope Benedict’s language, and I think it’s Caritas in Veritate. I think that’s where he got it. But he talks about how it’s something like truth and love have to go together. If you pull truth away from love, love becomes a caricature of itself. They’re always a partner deal. Like they always come together. So we have to be able to bring that in there. I do think, I mean, there’s many layers to what Jesus did in the temple, and I don’t claim to be a specialist or an expert in that, but he did it for the greatest good.

Dr. Peter: [00:59:18] Okay. And I’m not asking for that, but I’m just simply saying, it could be taken that if Jesus is critical at any point in any of this, it’s not Jesus, right? It’s a manager part showing up. Would that be true, or could there be a correction here? Could there be, you know, compassionate, that maybe parts are reacting to. Right, you know, like because one part is getting it and another part is like, you know, he’s condemning us, you know, kind of a thing. So how do you navigate something like that?

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:59:49] I would say this. I don’t think any of Jesus’s parts are burdened. Like my read of his divine nature and human nature combined. I don’t think we can say that he’s burdened.

Dr. Peter: [00:59:57] Everything’s perfectly ordered.

Dr. Peter Martin: [00:59:59] Yeah, so if a manager did show up, it’s a self-like one.

Dr. Peter: [01:00:02] But I’m sort of saying, let’s say that there’s an interaction happening with a part and Jesus. And the part that’s with Jesus is digging it. Like it’s okay, you know. But another part is observing this and, you know, is not okay with it, right. Again, how do we know? Right, it might be that this is actually Jesus, right? Maybe not. Maybe it is Jesus, but we’re misperceiving on the level of some part or other. I’m just trying to get into some of the nuances of this, because I think it could impact whether people could enter into something like this or not.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:00:36] I don’t think there’s any quick and easy answers. I would say this. If he says it, he does it in truth and love. If it comes across as a perceived rupture by the parts. So let’s just use the language of attachment, right. So what you’re getting at is, a part may feel like, okay, he’s not attuning to me. There’s a rupture at the level of the second primary condition of attachment security. He’s not tuning in to me. If it’s perceived that way, then there’s still the potential for the repair. And as we know with attachment, there’s always this, that the repair can make it stronger than it was before the rupture. So I think it would still be acceptable for a part — again, parts are fallen. They have their own burdens. They can overreact or underreact to things. And so it could easily be perceived as he’s attacking me or something like that, as opposed to it’s him doing it in love, kind of thing.

Dr. Peter: [01:01:32] And maybe a part of it is, the figuring of that out, you know, like the kind of coming together. That’s where sometimes the innermost self can be really helpful, if the innermost self can be with that part and say it’s not maybe what you think it is. How are we different then from spiritual direction or, you know, pastoral counseling, or some other fields that this is their stock and trade is the relationship with our Lord.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:01:58] So this gets into like the different disciplines. And so spiritual direction, though it does incorporate some human formation related things and psychological things. And I’m sure spiritual direction has changed over the centuries because of various reasons. But its primary focus is on the vertical dimension. However, it does incorporate interpersonal stuff. Intrapsychic, you know, psychological. A Catholic psychologist, for instance, or a Catholic mental health professional — the focus really in many ways, the focus really should be on the horizontal dimension. However, it incorporates things from the vertical. And then what happens though, is when you get into things like internal evangelization therapy or attachment spiritual intercessory kind of relationships, it can take on a feel of kind of a pastoral counseling of sorts. And so there are degree programs related to pastoral counseling. And so it can start kind of inching its way closer to that. So there’s overlap, but there should be some nuanced different goals and foci.

Dr. Peter: [01:02:59] I tend to think of it in terms of the anthropology that guides the therapy. Like, I don’t think of myself as a pastoral counselor, even though I do work with what I call spiritual confidants, we’re calling them spiritual intercessors here. It’s in the service of human formation. As a Catholic psychologist, I want my clients, I want members of the Resilient Catholics Community, to be able to connect with God, our Father and Mary our Mother, to overcome the human formation deficits, because they’re our primary parents. So it’s not just that they exist in the spiritual realm and for the spiritual purposes of spiritual growth. It’s also like in the raw humanity, in the natural realm. So I think about it in terms of like, what am I attempting to accomplish? And it really is — this is why Saint John the Baptist is a patron of Souls and Hearts — is to prepare the way, right. It’s about preparing the way by shoring up the natural foundation. And it sounds like that actually is a goal of IET, even though I would think of evangelization as having a, I don’t know, more of a focus on the spiritual realm.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:04:05] So this gets into a very interesting kind of domain, I think. And so the trespassing stuff, because that’s kind of what you’re going into a little bit here, is the domain trespassing or what did he call it?

Dr. Peter: [01:04:14] That’s right. We’re talking about what Matthew Walz, from episode 133, this dimensional trespassing, where a spiritual director is getting all over, you know, something in the human formation realm, or a therapist is, you know, advising or consulting about something you’re doing in pastoral formation. Violating those boundaries of expertise or role of the nature of the relationship and what it should be focusing on.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:04:42] Exactly. I think it’s a great construct to consider. So a couple thoughts on that would be — this is where it gets complicated. I agree with that construct, but I want to say a few things. There are ways to focus specifically on human formation. I had mentioned to you that I’m hoping to develop like a formation program with mentors for religious life and priests potentially, that is specifically focused on human formation. Now, it doesn’t mean you can’t say, Jesus, you can’t talk about the spiritual, but it really is about that natural human formation kind of approach. And then what they’re finding is that if they do that, we’re working with a religious order. Some feedback I’ve received is that if they do that well, spiritual direction takes off a little bit more, right? Because you’re getting those basic needs met, those core kind of attachment and other human needs met. And then what that does is, now I can start focusing more on the supernatural and spiritual, rather than spiritual direction turning into just emotional support or some kind of informal psychotherapy or something. So there’s clearly that. And I think that’s kind of what he’s getting at too, Walz, and what you’re getting at. This is where it gets complicated. So let’s go to attachment theory. One of the things about the ideal parent figure protocol is that the focus is less on the relationship with the therapist, and the focus is more on that internal working model of relationships. And by going to an ideal parent figure, the idea is that it transforms that internal working model so that the person is generally more secure and will behave so and that kind of thing.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:06:17] Why is that important? Because you can go to a spiritual person for that. So you’re going directly spiritual. Now it’s utilizing psychological constructs like internal working model. And we’re looking at the five primary conditions which looked at the research on all this over 40, 50 years and attachment theory. But you’re going to a supernatural, spiritual person who I acknowledge is there, and you’re turning to them in an intercessory way so that they can transform natural level internal working models. So the idea is, by me turning to Jesus using ideal parent figure protocol, helps my natural level human formation, and it helps my spiritual formation. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think Jesus can help us at all levels, and grace can help us at all levels. Now this brings up another point. So we’ve got the human formation and the spiritual formation. Is there another domain of area of focus which is the psychospiritual, which is that area where someone specializes in that specifically? You and I are both using measures to look at that, with the people we work with. And so the idea is, I do think that could be a specialization. Just like I think someone could take, you know, spiritual formation and look at how it applies in the pastoral kind of domain. I do think there’s these kind of bridging, so to speak. There’s enough overlap that there could be some bridging. And that goes back to the Vitz quote. Like when it comes to attachment theory as being like the number one psychological construct that bridges between the psychological sciences and the theological sciences. And now we’re getting into spiritual kind of things too. So I do think it does require to stay in your lane, but I do think those could be kind of nuanced lanes or something.

Dr. Peter: [01:08:11] And that was the point of Fr. Boniface Hicks when we were talking about this in episode 136. He thinks about it in terms of the competence of the individual who’s accompanying, rather than being determined by the field that they’re in, or the licensure that they have, or their role. So, yeah,  I think that’s always going to require some prudential judgment and some discernment, which is again, why I think it’s so important that formators — you know, if you’re taking on that mantle of leading and guiding others, that you really be working on your own human formation, your own spiritual formation, your own intellectual formation, your own pastoral formation.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:08:50] I agree with you. I wanted to say a couple of things here. You know, the idea is that as we’re kind of working with these parts, we’re going to help them discern and discover their internal vocation, that’s not based on fear and survival, but that’s based on love. That’s the idea. Love and connection. And the idea is the internal bonum commune, the common good of all. So the unburdened example of a part is now they can find this new role that they play in the internal system, and now it becomes more like a family rather than a bunch of enemies, kind of at war and so forth. So harmonized and peaceful. Now, one thing I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about bypassing the spiritual bypass. I don’t even know if that works, logically, but I just threw it out there. But the idea would be this. Helping a part or a person, let’s say a part. Helping a part to have enough safety, enough self-energy from IFS language, so that they don’t need to bypass the parts work. What might that look like?

Dr. Peter: [01:09:56] So they can address what’s going on in the natural realm without fleeing from it with spiritual practices, beliefs — that’s what bypassing is. It’s an attempt to avoid a reality in the natural realm, an emotional distress, or whatever it is going on at the psychological level by escaping into the spiritual realm.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:10:16] Escape is the key. It’s kind of a phobic reaction of sorts. Yeah, absolutely. So I like the model. I know you interviewed Fr. John Horn. I really like Fr. Horn. I’ve gotten to know him over the years.

Dr. Peter: [01:10:26] Well, you were the one that connected us, so that was episode 153.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:10:31] Yeah. He was, I think, instrumental in the ARRR method, the pirate prayer. And I like that from a parts perspective, because ARRR – so A would be acknowledge and usually they focus on thoughts, feelings, desires. We could say parts and things like that. And then the first R is to relate that. So you start intrapsychic, the inward turn. Now you go upward turn. So this would be the relate to God. And then open-hearted, receive his response. And then now would be the outward turn, which would be — what was it? It’s relate, receive, respond. So now you go to the respond, which is the outward turn. You can say that’s the pastoral turn for people. But the reason I like it, is that spiritual bypassing is skipping over the A.

Dr. Peter: [01:11:17] That’s exactly right.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:11:18] It skips over the A. It skips over that introspective kind of approach. It says, can’t handle the parts, gotta go. Now, why would people do that? Not enough self-energy. The theory would be they don’t have enough self-energy to be able to do the introspection. That’s why Schwartz developed things like direct access, right? So that you can have another self, the therapist, that deals with it or whatever. So the idea would be, well, how do I get more self-energy.

Dr. Peter: [01:11:42] More recollection, more groundedness.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:11:45] More groundedness, more courage to turn inward, right. Such an important virtue. One way to do that is to resource. Kinda go, okay, can you turn to your spiritual intercessor and then increase that self-energy? Well, now that spiritual intercessor can accompany them as needed, to help them do the inward turn, to go back to the A, work through the desires, thoughts, feelings, parts. And then with that, there’s enough self-energy, now they can relate it to God. Now that they have this newfound self-knowledge, it gives them a greater capacity for self love. Can’t love what you don’t know. And then it completes the ARRR prayer and so forth. So the idea is that you’re bypassing the spiritual bypass, paradoxically, ironically, with the help of the spiritual intercessor. So I thought I might throw a curveball. But the idea is that the self is fallen, as are the parts, and we need help. And some people, because of all the wounds from the past. And, you know, they just have a higher level of anxiety.

Dr. Peter: [01:12:47] And how parts make sense of their experiences, right? It’s not that God hurt them or harmed them. It’s that what happened felt like that’s what happened. So when Aunt Minnie tells you, well, if you pray really hard, your dog will live after he got hit by a car. And you pray really hard and your dog dies. And Aunt Minnie has some interpretation of that, you know, in your five-year-old mind, you’re like, uh, then God doesn’t love me, or I didn’t pray hard enough or whatever. Like that’s how parts are making sense of it. This is why it’s so tricky. It’s because the only way that we can undo this stuff is experientially. It was experientially burned into us in our formation and it has to be experientially resolved. And so the idea of a resource figure, if we want to use that language from some trauma modalities, or an intercessor or a spiritual confidant, is to help us experientially.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:13:42] That’s right. I think so too. Most prayers, it’s not so much the practical, but the emotional or experiential support that we get. Now with that then, another option. So this is relatively new, like literally within the last two weeks. But it’s not just the attachment security priming function, so to speak, that the spiritual intercessor provides at a natural level. Also, there’s the supernatural graces and whatnot. There’s also this potential. So let’s say it strengthens the person, more self-energy, to now turn into the A, so the acknowledging and the parts work. The other thing that’s interesting about this too is they also could be mentors. So for instance, I’m thinking of a guy who had a very entitled approach to life, very narcissistic parts, let’s say, and didn’t have a lot of good witnesses, you know, in terms of how to approach X, Y, and Z. He tended to be very kind of self-absorbed. Now, what happens is he turns to St. Joseph. And St. Joseph, for him, is the Good Samaritan incarnate. That’s just who Saint Joseph is. So he watches how Saint Joseph might respond to this. He observes, and we know Albert Bandura’s research on this, right? The idea of social witnessing, social learning. What’s his model? It evades me now. But remember the Bobo doll? Watch what they do with the Bobo doll. The kids would go up and hug, if the person hugged, they would punch, if the guy punched. So if he were to watch St. Joseph, observe what he does, process that with St. Joseph, test it out, try it out himself, talk about it with St. Joseph. Hey, this is what I did. Like, it’s just this whole accompaniment, apprenticeship, or however you want to put it. What can that do to transform the way he responds to people? Because he trusts St. Joseph more than just about anybody. And that’s good, for him in particular.

Dr. Peter: [01:15:28] You all know that I do long form podcasting, right? I mean, we are getting to some length here. I think we have to kind of land the plane. Just some key takeaways, that you would like to leave from this episode. And I also want to emphasize that you’re going to have a chance to talk with us on December 12th, from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time. We are going to be together again, but this time with all of you. With any of you that want to come, we are going to have on our landing page at soulsandhearts.com/iic, which stands for Interior Integration for Catholics. That’s the landing page for this podcast. soulsandhearts.com/iic. We will have a registration link for a Zoom meeting. It’s not going to cost you anything. You can come join us and ask questions. And that’s on December 12th, 2024 from 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM Eastern time. You know, we’ll take questions about all of this stuff, so make sure that you check that out. We’ll also put it in the description for this YouTube episode for 155. But yeah, a couple of things you just want us to keep in mind as we bring this to a close.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:16:34] Yeah, no, I’m excited for the Q&A. So come with questions. I think the key would be, one key would be that each part has a unique history. And if that part is open and permits connection with a spiritual intercessor, generally I find parts work goes better. They add more “self-energy” to the system.

Dr. Peter: [01:16:54] So basically you’re saying intercessors help parts?

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:16:56] They totally do. They totally do. Yeah, at all steps of the process. Yeah, that’s the idea.

Dr. Peter: [01:17:02] At each level, of these attachment needs, you know, be getting met.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:17:06] Jenna Reimers — I heard her on a podcast — where she will breathe in self-energy before doing parts work. So what she’s doing, so she’s inviting in more self-energy, but she’s definitely doing a deep dive diaphragmatic breathing exercise at the same time. Now in this case, you know, it’d be interesting what Schwartz’s response to that would be. But also in this case, it’s the person and the place, right? So it’s like, just like retrieval can be done before the witnessing step. It can be done before the redo or the reparenting some call it, or before the unburdening step. Similarly, with the spiritual intercessor. They can accompany and it makes everything better. Just ask King David in the valley of the shadow of death. And the other thing about the spiritual bypass. Incorporating a spiritual intercessor to bypass the spiritual bypass. The idea would be to increase self-energy through an attachment relationship, a supernatural attachment relationship. So now I don’t have to skip over the A out of fear. I can courageously go into that valley of the shadow of death — because it feels that way for some people.

Dr. Peter: [01:18:07] Oh, absolutely. It’s terrifying.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:18:09] Absolutely. And I respect that. And so the idea is, how do we take down that neuroceptive threat, that fear. Once the self-energy increases, now we can do the three N’s — to notice, to know, and the needs. There’s a joke in Nebraska. I don’t know if I should say it, but I’ll say it anyway. So in Nebraska, the football team has N on the helmets. You know what that stands for? Knowledge. So to notice, to know, and the needs. There are some very intelligent football players, I would say. But, and then from that now we have this gift that we can give the Lord, as we relate it to him. I always think of it as a gift-wrapped package. We can give it to the Lord. Now, we wait for his gift to us and we receive it. And now we’re gifted. And now we respond and we go out. The outward turn.

Dr. Peter: [01:18:58] Well, I think this whole discussion highlights this thing about parts, because sometimes people, when they first come into contact with internal family systems or parts work more broadly, they think parts are just like these sort of mood states, or they’re just very sort of transient ways of understanding experience. Like they don’t really exist, you know. And one of the things that Schwartz has been adamant about is that these parts are actually constellations of emotions and desires and impulses and feelings. He actually goes beyond where I go, goes beyond where you go, because he actually believes that they’re like separate little individuals. And he would say that each of them has a body. Each of them has a soul. He would say each of them has a self. We don’t say that. He would say each of them has its own intellect. Each of them has its own will. But they are far more cohesive than I think most people initially think about, because we’re so inundated with these assumptions that we have a single, homogenous, monolithic personality. But clinically, I mean, I think you’re going to see this parts stuff just explode in the next couple of decades. It’s gotten exponentially — and why? Because it works. I mean, this is not because it just, you know, is marketed well or something. It’s because it actually makes a huge difference in people’s lives. And what I love about these approaches is that you don’t actually have to be in therapy for them to work. Like, there’s a lot of folks that don’t need the specialized attention and care of a professional therapist who are taking this sort of thing on and getting a lot better in a lot of different ways. 

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:20:36] Yeah, I do think it’s going to launch. It is extremely popular. And some of that’s marketing, of course, you know, because you could have the best system in the world, but if you don’t market it properly. But ultimately I just think it works and it makes sense of the chaos. It helps to kind of give tangible, demystified approaches to those emotional states or those parts in us that are kind of struggling.

Dr. Peter: [01:20:56] So if you are a therapist or a coach or a spiritual director or a priest or anybody that accompanies others, you have an opportunity to work with Dr. Peter Martin. You have an opportunity to join the Formation for Formators community. You can check that out at soulsandhearts.com/fff. Your FEG is starting in March and you also have a Preparation for Transcendence group starting in March. The Foundations Experiential Group, the FEG, that’s where formators have an opportunity to really work on their own human formation. It’s very experiential. We do a lot of experiential exercises. It’s very grounded in a Catholic understanding of the human person. It brings in so much of what we’ve been talking about in these last two episodes. I would encourage you to check that out. Do you know when that’s going to be, like what night of the week?

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:21:47] It’s going to be Wednesday evenings. I think the first one is at 6:15 Eastern. And then I think the P for T might be like 8:15 Eastern.

Dr. Peter: [01:21:55] The Preparation for Transcendence group. So that Foundations Experiential Group is that turn inward. It’s really about acknowledging what’s going on in our own human experience. The Preparation for Transcendence group is an advanced group. So that’s for folks that have already completed an FEG, a Foundations Experiential Group, or have got Level 1 training in IFS. This is all for Catholics. But it’s that turn upward, right? So it’s sort of like, kind of maps onto the ARRR prayer. Acknowledge and then to relate with God, that second one. So really encourage you to check that out. We have other FEG leaders. I’m leading an FEG. We have other advanced groups. Dr. Gerry is leading an advanced group as well. And then we have a lot going on in that community. So if you are a formator and you know, I hope you know, that you need to be working on your own formation. If you’re looking at a way to do that with other Catholics who are serious about their own human development, and you want to do that in a way that’s really grounded in a Catholic understanding of the human person and brings in this parts and systems work that we’ve been thinking about, check that out. soulsandhearts.com/fff, for the Formation for Formators community. If you are a Catholic who wants to really get into this in greater depth, we bring in all kinds of attachment and all kinds of parts work into the Resilient Catholics Community, the RCC. Check that out at soulsandhearts.com/rcc. That is for Catholic adults faithful to the church. We only take in folks that are able to agree to everything that’s taught definitively by the Catholic Church, but that really want to work on this neglected little area of human formation. So check that out. soulsandhearts.com/rcc. And again, if you want to reach out to Dr. Peter Martin, he’s got a website.

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:23:41] Yeah, ImmaculateHeartCounseling.org. And then the number is (402) 489-1834, want to get the number out. But yeah, ultimately if you have questions about this, we also have on our website some resources for you. That includes, we have a monthly 20 minute spot on the radio, Spirit Catholic Radio, which covers Nebraska and some of Iowa.

Dr. Peter: [01:24:01] But you can stream it anywhere in the world, right?

Dr. Peter Martin: [01:24:04] Yeah, you can stream it anywhere in the world. We have links to all that on our resources subpage and just lots of potential there. We’re also, I think I mentioned last time, we’re working on the PVAP, which is the Psychospiritual Vocational Assessment Project, and just really trying to get a lot of the resources that are already there. I mean, we’ve got all these assessments that are being done with priests and religious life, these these vocational assessments and how to aggregate that data and follow them and so forth throughout time. And you can get some wonderful, wonderful kind of research from that through dissertations and other things. We’re going to try to develop like a data bank of sorts for that information. And then ultimately to develop it into a kind of a refined mentorship program that focuses primarily on human formation, actually, for that program. And the idea is hopefully it’ll help the other domains as well.

Dr. Peter: [01:24:53] So Souls and Hearts — for more resources check out soulsandhearts.com/toc, which stands for Table of Contents. That’s our alphabetized listing of all of our podcast episodes and especially that series that I did on spiritual bypassing. I can’t remember when that was. We’ll put it in the YouTube description of this episode. But we’ve got so much to offer you. That spiritual bypassing was five articles that I wrote. It was about a year and a half ago, and you can check those out as well, because that is a huge issue for so many people, with so many managers who are trying to live devoutly, and it gets fostered in a variety of ways. So with that, again, Peter Martin, thank you so much for being with me here and for informing about all of this. Check out those resources. And let’s bring this to a close by invoking our patroness and our patrons. Our Lady, our Mother, Untier of Knots, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.

Special thanks to the Human Formation Coalition, who provided the support to make this transcript available.